Sunday, December 30, 2012

Yes, Mr Spooner, Deniers are Deniers

MobyT | 11:14 PM Go to the first of 4 comments. Add a comment
The Age has printed an opinion piece by John Spooner, a cartoonist, in which he writes about his rejection of climate science.  It was copied and pasted in HotCopper's science and medicine S&M forum.

Spooner has that peculiar form of denial in which he indicates very clearly that he doesn't understand the least bit about what it is that he is denying.  He asks:
What exactly is the relationship between CO2 and temperature?
This one's easy.  CO2 is the 'thermostat' controlling the earth's temperature.  Turn it up and the heat goes up, turn it down and it gets very cold.
Why did the warming trend stop as it did between 1945 and 1975, when CO2 emissions took off? 
Spooner fails again.  The global surface temperature trend is up and has been trending up for decades.  This past ten years have been the warmest on record.  In fact, NOAA reports that it's almost three decades since any month has been cooler than the long term average:
November 2012 also marks the 36th consecutive November and 333rd consecutive month with global temperature higher than the long-term average. The last month with a below average temperature was February 1985, nearly 28 years ago.

Saturday, December 29, 2012

More on: Parody or the 'Real Thing'?

MobyT | 10:25 PM Feel free to comment!
What good is the HotCopper discussion board if you can't use it to vent?  Provided one is of the right political persuasion (pun intended), it's almost as good as having your very own blog!

Venting does have its limits though.  The main complaint of HotCopper's operator "Yoda" is that Australia's laws stifle 'free speech' (while he and his moderators delete comments they don't agree with when the mood takes them!).  He says he's "getting ready to move to the USA" where, he presumably and mistakenly thinks, you can say whatever you like about anyone whenever you like.

Source (subs req'd): HotCopper.com

Now you can understand why many HotCopper regulars believe they have free rein when it comes to voicing their discontent with "tall poppies".  And you can take it as given that high up the average HotCopper-ite's list of pet hates is Ben Bernanke.  When they aren't blaming the One World Government, the UN, President Obama or PM Gillard, they blame Bernanke for all the real and imagined ills of the financial world.

Just the same, when some of the regulars mistake this satirical piece on Ben Bernanke (from the famed "The Onion") for the 'real thing' it's got to be right up there with the best of them.

Source (subs req'd): HotCopper.com

No-one could accuse the average HotCopper-ite of being astute :(

Denier Memes: The 'communist-socialist-cultist' conspiracy ...

MobyT | 4:15 PM Go to the first of 5 comments. Add a comment
Among people who reject climate science there is a dominant sub-group who are also conspiracy theorists.  You can easily pick them because they pepper their articles with words like 'scam', 'cult' and 'fraud'.  And among the conspiracy theorists there is a sub-group specialising in 'communist plot' conspiracies.

The origin of the 'reds under the bed' denier meme as it's applied to climate science is unclear. The meme is not restricted to climate science but can be adapted for any topic, such as open source software and even education and art, in fact anything at all to which one objects.  It can also be substituted for or by a "new world order" / "one world government" plot or a "fascist" plot.

Parody or the 'real thing'?

It can be hard for the casual reader to know whether someone is writing a parody or the real thing (see Poe's Law).  Take our Ben for example.  Ben often posts on climate science threads although I don't recall him ever discussing science.  In a few paragraphs on the HotCopper science and medicine S&M forum he mixes well-worn paranoid conspiracy theories (AGW cult) with 'reds under the bed' buzz phrases from the McCarthy era.  If he is writing parody he's kept it up for years without blinking.

Here is a handy list of key words (including frequency) for anyone who wants to emulate him:

socialist/socialism (9), communist/communism (7), cult/cultist (6), USSR (4), AGW scam and cult (3), destruction (2), corrupt (2), children (2), Lysenkoism, soviet, leftist, political, puppet, Gillard, Obama, religious, infiltration, invasion, hoaxers, dictators, hitler*, stalin, lenin, mao, brainwashing, indoctrination, greenie, cesspit, corrupt and complicit UN
In this screenshot I've highlighted some of the 'important' words and phrases.  As you can see, the words can be used interchangeably and work equally well in any or no context :)

Source: HotCopper.com S&M forum 

Friday, December 28, 2012

Liars in the MSM are called to account

MobyT | 2:10 AM Feel free to comment!
It's good to see more and more people speaking out against lies, odious rants, rampant misogyny and disinformation on the internet, particularly when it comes from 'personalities' and mainstream media. 

Climate Progress has a report by Graham Readfearn about the Australian Press Council findings in relation to lies written by Andrew Bolt and offensive articles penned by James Delingpole (speaking of odious).

More and more people are starting to take action against disinformation of the type The Australian revels in.  Tim Lambert from Deltoid continues to act as a watchdog, reporting its frequent untruths about climate science.  In his latest piece, he writes about a particularly disgusting and false headline in The Australian.

I wonder if it's because as global warming gets worse, science deniers are decreasing in numbers and it's left to the more extreme ratbags to write stuff.

Thursday, December 27, 2012

A window on HotWhoppers' view of science

MobyT | 6:24 PM Feel free to comment!
One way of avoiding the reality of global warming is to read sentimental rhymes instead of climate science.

Climate science (a)verse

Pete222 on HotCopper gets his 'information' about climate science from 80 year old rhymes when he's not gazing out his window.  Here on the Science and Medicine forum, Pete quotes a young homesick Dorothea Mackellar to 'prove' all the physics, chemistry, biology, meteorology, climatology and related science of the past couple of centuries is fundamentally wrong.

Source: HotCopper.com S&M forum

A window on climate

And to support his contention, Pete222 offers irrefutable proof of windows:

Source: HotCopper.com S&M forum

Best Science Post - Gold Star Award

Canberra is so cool...
Birdman29 got a HotCopper Gold Star (the thumbs up award for the post most readers agree with) for saying the weather in Canberra has been mild the last couple of days.  As you can see it truly is a ground-breaking science post worthy of the highest accolades and deserves an elephant stamp.

Source: HotCopper.com S&M forum

(So what's a bit of exaggeration between friends?)

Despite the fact that this December hasn't been the hottest December on record in Canberra, so far it's 1.4 degrees Celsius above the long term average maximum.  (If you doubt that HotCopperites think the world revolves around Canberra - just  visit the HotCopper politics forum :D)

HotCopper's message to climate scientists

The message is that climate scientists should quit their field measurements, mathematics, physics, laboratories, computers, satellites, sensors and all the scientific knowledge accumulated over the centuries to date. 

All they need to do is look out Pete's window or sit in the shade in Birdman's backyard and read sentimental rhymes from long ago.

Wednesday, December 26, 2012

HotCopper Whopper - Meaningless, dumb ...

MobyT | 10:42 PM Feel free to comment!
HotCopper science deniers are all over the place when it comes to climate discussions.  Honestly you have to wonder if they are as much in denial with their share trading.

Take HC44.  He responded to the UK Met office indicating 2013 is likely to be one of the warmest ten years on record with this comment:

Source: HotCopper.com S&M forum

Meaningless, dumb - errr I guess so.

Yes, the 100th warmest would be one of the 100 warmest, but there's buckley's that 2013 will be the 100th warmest. Even so, if someone had said 'one of the warmest' most people wouldn't have expected them to mean the coldest in 100 years.

Let's look at a chart from the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature analysis showing the annual land-surface average temperature.  I've added a line that measures 100 years so you can compare recent temperatures at the right of the chart with those of 100 years or so ago.

The 100th warmest year on record was ... wait for it, about 100 years ago.  It's all because of global warming.  Barring a freak event like a super-volcano, it could well be several thousand years before earth experiences another year that cold. (Click to enlarge.)

Land surface temperature isn't global surface temperature, granted, because it doesn't count the oceans.  So let's look at global surface temperatures as reported by NASA.  The 100th warmest temperature on record was - you guessed it, almost 100 years ago. (Click to enlarge.)

One of the warmest ten years on record

Now let's go back to the UK Met Office.  Did it actually say that 2013 would be 'one of the warmest'?  In fact, the Met Office was much more precise.  Its long term global forecast is that 2013 will not just be 'one of the warmest' it will be one of the ten warmest years in the past 162 years and warmer than this year:
Taking into account the range of uncertainty in the forecast and observations, it is very likely that 2013 will be one of the warmest ten years in the record which goes back to 1850, and it is likely to be warmer than 2012.
I suggest to HotCopper-ites if you are going to try to be 'clever', do it with a bit more finesse and try to give the impression you know something about the topic.  Otherwise your comment comes across as "meaningless, dumb..."!

Monday, December 24, 2012

Have a wonderful holiday ...

MobyT | 1:18 PM Go to the first of 2 comments. Add a comment

Happy holidays

HotCopper Whopper for Monday

MobyT | 1:20 AM Feel free to comment!

Tilting at (15th Century) Windmills?

This little gem came to my attention and made me laugh.  Did you know we've been using windmills to generate electricity since the fifteenth century and they've been destroying our health? (Click to enlarge.)

Source: HotCopper.com

Ben isn't too sure whether inhaling thick carcinogenic smoke is harmful or not, but it's a dead cert that a 15th century windmill is health-destroying!

Sunday, December 23, 2012

Why call attention to sexism?

MobyT | 12:52 PM Feel free to comment!
A lot of people (though more men than women) think women should just 'suck it up' when it comes to sexism. Not so.

Now some people have it wrong, I'm told (generically speaking).  Disagreement on topical issues (like climate science) isn't sexist or based on sexism or misogyny - at least not in my experience.  If you want to know what sexism looks like, click here.

Janet Stemwedel on her Scientopia blog sums up nicely some excellent reasons for calling out sexist behaviour  Her main points are paraphrased here:

  1. To shine a spotlight on sexist behaviour so that more people will notice it and stop assuming people who point it out are making a mountain out of a molehill.
  2. To encourage others to take a stand.
  3. So when people behave in a sexist way they are made to feel deeply uncomfortable and maybe ashamed (along with those who sit by and encourage it, condone it or allow it to happen). 
  4. So that people who call out sexism, instead of being deprived of free speech have their free speech just as vigorously defended as people 'spouting sexist nonsense'.
  5. So people who happen to be women can concentrate on their interests rather than being distracted by ugly sexism.
And a couple more thoughts of my own:

I don't care if people are sexist at heart - just don't behave like a sexist dolt especially not to my face.

I love our pluralist society even though that means accepting the fact sexism still exists.  Doesn't mean I should stay silent and cop disgustingly sexist behaviour.

I hope my thoughts will go some way to encouraging colleagues when a man behaves in a sexist manner towards women, to quietly tell him to stop, not close ranks and call women who draw it to their attention "unacceptably outspoken".

Friday, December 21, 2012

HotCopper Denier Classic - Aliens and Ozone

MobyT | 11:35 PM Go to the first of 6 comments. Add a comment

A classic from last year on the HotCopper S&M forum.

A contribution to the S&M forum from Moondoong, the self-described 'busted-ass mining engineer'.  He thinks everything on this list is equally unlikely and not at all 'alarming'.

He equates AIDS (one of the world's biggest killers) and the hole in the ozone layer (a disaster in the making but thankfully being addressed) with an alien invasion and an asteroid striking earth.  Alar did pose a risk, albeit nothing like smoking tobacco.  Y2K was a real problem but not one that mining engineers would necessarily understand.  I don't know what was in his mind when he added magnetic pole shift or solar flares. They happen all the time.  (Does anyone know what Planet X refers to?)

          Source: HotCopper.com S&M forum

About twice as many science and medicine visitors agreed with moondoong (going by the "thumbs up" he was awarded) as thought he was talking through his 'busted ass'.

Yep, that's HotCopper :(

Wednesday, December 19, 2012

Horseshit from the USA

MobyT | 11:29 PM Feel free to comment!
Sea level change is due to horse-diving, according to prominent global warming scientists deniers Willie Soon and Nils-Axel Morner.

From the Washington Times:

While examining tide gauge records from Atlantic City's Steel Pier, Mr. Galvin discovered a remarkable effect apparently caused by spectators who came to watch horse-diving between 1929 and 1978. From old photographs, it was estimated that there must have been about 4,000 spectators who would come to watch. Given that this crowd probably weighed about 150 tons, the pier was subject to significant loading and unloading cycles. The initial 1912-1928 data showed the sea level rising at a rate of 0.12 inches per year. The rate tripled around 1929 when the horses began diving. When the shows were suspended from 1945 to 1953, sea level fell at a rate of 0.06 inches per year. When the diving resumed, the sea level rose again at a rate of 0.16 inches per year. Such clear documentation of the direct influence of local weight loading and unloading activities on tide gauge reading should add a cautionary note to connecting tide gauge data series to man-made greenhouse gas global warming phenomena.

I seriously doubt anyone would take the article seriously, not even a reader of the Washington Times.  But deniers are often complete cranks so who knows.

People Power

Just in case there is someone stupid enough, Tamino took Soon and Morner to task and pointed out that those 4,000 people standing on the pier watching the diving horses not only changed the sea level in Atlantic City, they changed the sea level right up and down the east coast of North America! 

Just goes to show what people power can do!

HotCopper Deniers of the Week

MobyT | 10:26 PM Go to the first of 9 comments. Add a comment

More silliness from denier share traders on HotCopper

Here is the latest world-shattering news straight from the keyboard of berretta - a resident science rejecter at the HotCopper share discussion forum (subs req'd):

Berretta doesn't just deny science he denies economics as well.  He seems to have decided that burning coal is not one of the main source of the additional atmospheric CO2 from human sources (usually edging out oil / petroleum products).

Younglogga, a newcomer to HotCopper, posted a decent response - he knows his stuff pretty well:

Silly old Berretta was having none of it.  In Berretta's mind he himself is the smartest man on HotCopper. Scientists know nada, according to him.

LesPaul is typical of the trolls, coming up with one of the tiredest, least original denier taunts on the internet: "Stop breathing if you accept science and let we scientific illiterati get on with destroying the planet in peace", he says.

While Mike68, who has often said that Cat 5 Tropical Cyclone Yasi was a good thing, and that global warming will also be good because jungles will grow, posted in the same vein as LesPaul:

The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything CO2 is 42 (+1)%

In fact it wasn't very hard to find the latest information.  (Ain't google wonderful.)

Last year coal was the biggest source of CO2 emissions. Here is what the Global Carbon Project says in its latest Global Carbon Budget report:
CO2 emissions from fossil fuels burning and cement production increased by 3% in 2011, with a total of 9.5±0.5 PgC emitted to the atmosphere (34.7 billion tonnes of CO2). These emissions were the highest in human history and 54% higher than in 1990 (the Kyoto Protocol reference year). In 2011, coal burning was responsible for 43% of the total emissions, oil 34%, gas 18%, and cement 5%.
(The above doesn't include equivalent emissions from deforestation, agriculture and other land use activities, which last year accounted for around 10% of the total. )


As for Berretta

So far, Berretta hasn't given his answer.  When he poses a silly question it is often his habit to not provide any answer of his own.  I guess he thinks if he says coal burning is not currently the biggest contributor then maybe someone will believe him.

As for HotCopper

Yes, this really is the standard that HotCopper aspires to.  The mods and management allow deniers to harass anyone who is actually interested in science and if that doesn't get rid of them, the mods add to the bullying.  Ultimately if you still insist on posting real science, management and mods form a lynch mob and ban you forever.

Monday, December 17, 2012

Belated tribute to Ravi Shankar

MobyT | 12:03 AM Feel free to comment!
I only heard Ravi Shankar play live once, at the Royal Albert Hall back in the early 1970s. He was introduced by George Harrison and the concert was wonderful.  This may have been the very same concert - I'll check the program dates at some stage:

The tribute from the Royal Albert Hall:


Saturday, December 15, 2012

Whew, that feels better ...

MobyT | 11:13 PM Feel free to comment!
© Stik, Jantoo.com

Someone calling me a cow? Huh!

Cartoon on Sexism - from Gabby

MobyT | 7:08 PM Feel free to comment!
I've posted Gabby's cartoon on sexism (thanks, Gabby), which probably marks the end of my articles letting off steam about the treatment dished out to me by management and moderators of the HotCopper share trading forum (which prompted me to start the blog). (Click here or on the image to see the full cartoon.)
Sexism cartoon by Gabby

Future articles will continue to focus on internet sexism along with climate science denial, the dark side of the conservative brain and other random topics.  Sometimes in a humourous vein and sometimes more seriously.

Free speech protection for real Aussie share traders (men only, naturally)

MobyT | 5:21 PM Feel free to comment!
We've put up some suggested Terms of Use to better explain who is welcome and how to behave on some (not most) forums set up for share traders and investors.  These are particularly geared for that large Aussie board built as a 'men's playground'

Bleeding heart liberals and feminazis be warned!  These terms of use are designed to protect the rights of full-blooded dinky di Aussie men to 'free speech'.  Anyone who disagrees with their point of view may be tolerated to a point, but does NOT have a right to 'free speech'.

Click here to read.  Comments most welcome (except if you're a bleeding heart liberal or a feminazi or anyone other than a white Australian male of sufficiently conservative inclination). /sarc

Friday, December 14, 2012

Crikey - it's the sun (not really)

Sou | 9:28 PM Feel free to comment!

Too much time in the sun, poor things...

The deniers on HotCopper have worked themselves in a tizzy over someone posting an early draft of the IPCC report online.  They are under an illusion that the denialist blogger (who got the draft by registering himself as an 'expert reviewer', which anyone can do - even Monckton registered himself as such) has found the one sentence in that mammoth document that in his mind shows 'it's the sun' or 'it's cosmic rays' that's causing global warming.  (He ignores the surrounding sentences in true denier fashion.)

Suddenly deniers are touting the IPCC as the reliable source of information on climate science!

(Mind you, yesterday HotCopperites were saying the earth isn't warming, and some have been arguing that an ice age cometh!)


However one of the lead authors of the chapter in question, Professor Steve Sherwood (who wrote the paper on heat stress), said the claims were 'ridiculous'.  From the ABC report:
Professor Steve Sherwood, the director of the Climate Change Research Centre at the University of NSW, was the lead author of the chapter in question. He says the idea that the chapter he authored confirms a greater role for solar and other cosmic rays in global warming is "ridiculous"....
..."Even the sentence doesn't say what they say and certainly if you look at the context, we're really saying the opposite."

Truly ridiculous

Not a single one of the HotCopper deniers has shown that they understand what the denialist blogger was talking about. Here's a link to the thread (subs req'd).  They've just made the usual cut and paste posts from denier blogs, or made comments like this one from one of the resident paranoid conspiracy junkies:

UN Agenda 21 plan for enslavement of us all? What has Ben been smoking?

And another for good measure, from poor little laddie Hanrahan who has a 'thing' for the shape of the global surface temperature record.  (Can some please tell him that making up stuff won't win him admiration from any quarter?)

Finally, an angry comment from Mr Misogynist himself, thalweg:

(HotCopper's share discussion board is really classy - Not!)

Denialist reading score - Fail!

For the back story, see John Byatt's post here, a report on ABC PM here, an article in the Guardian and an article from Graham Readfearn.  Graham's closing para says it all:
What this leak also shows is the tendency by some to dishonestly engage in an open process and to cherry-pick “facts” about climate change to suit their own arguments, while failing to consider the full body of evidence. Or in this case, failing to bother to read the very next paragraph.

Is gang mentality more common among conservative men?

Sou | 3:44 PM Feel free to comment!
Thinking about what makes men form lynch mobs to attack who they see as an 'outsider' - such as an intelligent women, particularly if they think she doesn't share their world view.  Is the gang mentality more common among conservative men?

In trying to understand what motivates some men to gang up on women I came across this article: How coherence defines conservatism.

The article comments on the low tolerance of conservatives for ambiguity and cognitive dissonance, which is a well known and much researched attribute.  It goes on to discuss the search for 'coherence', which is the opposite of cognitive dissonance.

My thinking is that this may result in the suppression of rational thought when dealing with an uncomfortable situation, and a reliance on emotion to govern behaviour in such circumstances.   Emotional responses can cause people to lash out in an unpredictable way, with sometimes very adverse consequences.

That could in part explain why some men won't acknowledge when one of their rank is behaving like a sexist pig.  Instead of chastising the perpetrator who they see as one of their own, the conservative men gang up and say 'He's not being a sexist pig, you are - because you said that what he said was sexist.'

The Lynch Mob

Such a response is automatic in them and none of the gang members stop to think it through rationally.  It's driven by their emotion and they take comfort in the fact that every member of their gang is with them against the evil outsider (the woman). It's enough for these gang members that they've resolved the feeling of discomfort by attacking the victim not the perpetrator.  They regain their sense of 'coherence'.  Because they view the perpetrator as being one of their own, in their mind if they chastised him they would have had to own his behaviour and their minds could not tolerate that.  It would overload on cognitive dissonance.

That's no excuse of course.  The human brain, including the conservative brain, has the ability to reason.  It's the behaviour of a lynch mob for which there is no excuse. Lynch mobs and gangs operate like a single organism instead of operating like a group of individuals.  An individual needs to separate from the mob to think independently and start to behave in a more rational manner.  (In business jargon it's referred to as 'group think' and there are techniques to try to avoid it.)

Inertia vs effort, morality vs group coherence

The other aspect is that it takes effort to check to see if one of their own gang was in fact misbehaving.  Or to see if the 'outsider' is a trouble maker or if she is simply an individual who happened to observe something nasty and report it.  To not investigate is laziness - and morally repugnant.  However the gang encourages laziness and for some people, gang coherence is a stronger force than moral imperative or justice. There is a risk that if any gang member were to take the effort to look at the situation rationally (in my case it's clear that not one person bothered to look at the situation at all, let alone rationally), the other members would gang up on him and ostracise him.  So laziness is the 'safest' route - for individual 'coherence' as well as for group 'coherence'.

The dark side of the conservative brain

I figure my search for understanding the dark side of the conservative brain will lead in many different directions - from moral writings to cognitive science to ethics and philosophy and back to psychology more generally.

Thursday, December 13, 2012

Misogyny is Ugly, Sexism is Unacceptable - Prime Minister Gillard's speech

Sou | 7:37 PM Feel free to comment!
Given the recent news that the Slipper vs Ashby case been thrown out, I thought again about the speech that Ms Gillard made in October this year (2012).

PM Gillard made a wonderful speech about misogyny, prompted by the Federal opposition challenging the government to remove the speaker (Peter Slipper) or be considered misogynistic. (Some highly offensive text messages from Peter Slipper had recently been made public.)

The PM referred to several instances where the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, showed his true, sexist colours.  If you can't wait to watch the video, here are some of items:

  • Tony Abbott said: "If it's true, Stavros, that men have more  power generally speaking than women, is that a bad thing?"
  • As a follow up comment to "I want my daughter to have the same opportunity as my son." Tony Abbott retorted: "Yes I completely agree. But what if men are by physiology or temperament more adapted to exercise authority or to issue command?"
  • In response to a comment "I think it is very hard to deny that there is an under-representation of women". Tony Abbott responds: "But now, there's an assumption that this is a bad thing."
  • Tony Abbott in his past role as Minister for Health in March 2004: "Abortion is the easy way out."
  • Tony Abbott, during his campaign to oppose the introduction of carbon pricing, painting his image of women's roles in modern Australia: "When the housewives of Australia need to do what the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing.
  • Tony Abbott catcalling at PM Gillard, across the table in Parliament, referring to the Prime Minister's relationship with her partner: "If the Prime Minister wants to politically speaking make an honest woman of herself!"
  • Tony Abbott speaking next to a sign by his supporters with the words"Ditch the Witch" and one that described the Prime Minister as "A man's bitch". 

Sexism from HotCopper Moderator in response to the speech

The speech drew some discussion on the HotCopper share discussion board.  They provide further evidence of the sexism of moderators on HotCopper.  Look at the response by the moderator Poyndexter to this comment:

The original poster says Abbott doesn't 'hate' women because he married one and had three daughters.  Given his sexist stance as reported by the Prime Minister in the video, what would it take to persuade ikhutch that Abbott was at best sexist and has a tendency to misogyny?  Perhaps he would have to keep his wife locked up barefoot in the kitchen and kill off his daughters?  Knowing women, marrying women and employing women is not evidence that a man is not sexist.  His words show his attitude towards women, just as Poyndexter's words do and the actions of HotCopper management and moderators do.

And Poyndexter has found someone who agrees with him that the Prime Minister "trumped up and orchestrated" her comments about Tony Abbott.  Click here to go to the thread (subs req'd).

Too often some men will say we women over-react when we object to being demeaned, sexually harassed, abused or otherwise treated as second class humans or worse.  It's similar to climate science denial.  Men gang up to comfort each other that women should cop sexism without complaint.  Thank goodness there are many strong women and men in the world who see injustice for what it is and have the spine and will to change things.

We are entitled to a better standard than this

Julia Gillards closing words were: We are entitled to a better standard than this.

HotCopper doesn't think so - HotCopper bans women for objecting to revolting sexist comments.  I can't see standards improving under the current HotCopper management, with its sexist view of the world, racist inclinations and its tendency to silence anyone whose point of view is not at the extreme end of right wing ideology.  However maybe one of these days there will be a change of guard at HotCopper.  You never know, ownership might change, it's changed hands a few times before.  With all the baby boomers retiring more women are keen to manage their retirement savings.  A new breed of operator could sweep out all the muck and transform the 'Men's Playground', rejuvenating it into a more tolerant, vibrant place where women and men could engage with each other without women having to pretend they are men and put up with all the sexist crap dished out by management, moderators and some subscribers.

Good advice for people of all ages - coping with bullies

Sou | 4:03 PM Feel free to comment!
I spotted a link to this article on the Feministing blog.  It's from HuffPost and lists:

10 Things I Want My Daughter To Know Before She Turns 10

(Loving the symmetry of the headline).

In the context of the early articles on this blog, which aim at getting out of my system the horrible treatment from Greg D'Arcy and the moderators at HotCopper share discussion board (as well as providing a warning for the unwary), item number 8 is worth remembering:
8. It is almost never about you. What I mean is that when people act in a way that hurts or makes you feel insecure, it is almost certainly about something happening inside of them, and not about you. I struggle with this one mightily, and I have tried very, very hard never once to tell you you are being "too sensitive" or to "get over it" when you feel hurt. Believe me, I know how feelings can slice your heart, even if your head knows otherwise. But maybe, just maybe, it will help to remember that almost always other people are struggling with their own demons, even if they bump into you by accident.
The HotCopper experience didn't make me feel insecure.  And I didn't think I was hurt so much as deeply aggrieved and angered.  However that's not quite true - I was hurt.  Particularly as many posters regarded me as having immense patience despite the bullying, stalking and harassment deniers incessantly bombarded.  Even two 'deniers' have indicated they 'missed me' and my science posts, and I believe they were genuine.

The bit about agressors 'struggling with their own demons' is worth bearing in mind.  HotCopper mods must feel very threatened by me and know they cannot justify their actions, because they quickly delete any post that mentions me by name and have reportedly threatened posters who've done so.  That's in contrast to other people they have suspended where they even allowed discussion of the suspension itself when it came to posters such as Voltaire, CranswickBigGambler and IronMike among others (subs req'd).

There has been quite a bit of research recently on the mental contortions extreme right wing ideologues have to go through to try to rationalise their opinions and actions.  I'll write more about them here when I get some time.  As a taster, here is an article by Profs Stephan Lewandowsky and Klaus Oberauer about 'mental models'.  A copy of their paper can be found here.

If anyone knows of any research into whether there is a correlation between sexism and right wing fundamentalism, conspiracy ideation and/or rejection of science, particularly climate science, I'd really like to know about it.

Wednesday, December 12, 2012

The Men's Playground

MobyT | 10:06 PM Feel free to comment!

Note: This was originally posted as a blog page rather than a blog post. It is preserved here, with all comments.
Sou (aka MobyT) - April 2015.

Women are not welcome on HotCopper (unless they know their 'place')

Until recently, the last time I was seriously and blatantly discriminated against because of my sex (that I know of) was the year before Equal Opportunity Legislation was introduced in NSW way back in the mid-1970s.  Then in the early 80s one of my several jobs was to manage the introduction of EEO policies and procedures.  I worked in a male dominated organisation.  When I came across anything that could be viewed as discriminatory, whether a policy or something someone did or said, the invariable reaction from the 'bosses' was an immediate 'please tell us how to fix it!'  These were mature self-confident successful men who viewed women as equals and wanted to make sure we were treated as such.

I was intrigued to find there is a still a sizeable sub-culture of sexist creatures of the male sex alive and well who hobnob on the internet.  Unlike the men I mix and work with, these are not successful men comfortable with themselves.  They act as if they have to put women down or worse, as in this case, bully them and deny them access to goods and services, in order to make themselves feel any sense of self worth.

Misogynists made welcome at HotCopper

Earlier this year (2012) I was banned from the share trading discussion board, HotCopper, because I sent a private message to the moderators and made a subsequent complaint.  HotCopper is a commercial business that boasts of being "Australia's largest stock trading and investor internet discussion forum with over 170,000 active members."

My private message to the moderators was along the lines that calling women paranoid, schizophrenic and deserving of death could be viewed by some people (not all, obviously) as a tad sexist and misogynistic.
Here is one of the posts to which I was referring - a hateful post about a women who died after childbirth.  Good riddance, he writes, arrogant, self-interested, dangerous, mentally misfiring, dysfunctional.

Source (subs req'd): HotCopper.com

Thing is, the reason I wrote to the mods was because they deleted some posts that followed the hate posts made by thalweg (or acreage1 as he was then).  I was explaining that some of us thought his posts were over the top and figured if any posts should have been removed from the thread, his would have been at the top of the list.   The mods disagreed as we shall see.

Forum management chose not to remove thalweg's revolting misogynistic posts.  They either agreed with them or they decided it was 'free speech'.  The moderators decided the six or so posts saying they didn't much appreciate sexist attitudes, particularly like that shown by thalweg, did not constitute "free speech" and must be deleted because they offended people who hold attitudes like thalweg.  (As an aside, most of thalweg's posts are along these lines.  Yet he has never been suspended even for a day!)

In what universe is it sexist to point out hateful sexism?  Only in the alternate (sexist) reality of HotCopper

After I saw all the polite posts deleted (one from me and some from other people) as well as my one narky post, I sent the private message to the moderators (TOU) alerting them to thalweg's three disgusting posts, assuming they hadn't noticed them even though they'd been up for hours. 

The reaction was instantaneous and vicious.  But it wasn't thalweg's posts they reacted to, it was the fact that a mere woman would dare to say they were offensive.  I was immediately suspended from the forum for an entire month (most suspensions are for a day or two) and told that it was I who was being sexist.  Thalweg's posts were given the mod's blessing and allowed to remain. 

Mods and management, who often moan about the death of 'free speech', decided to stop me from 'speaking' altogether.  Free speech to extreme conservatives apparently only applies to speeches they like to hear. (Consider the Australian's editorial of 11 December 2012 seeking freedom to 'offend' while it has tried to stifle freedom of speech in the past.)

(Several hours later another moderator removed one of the three hate posts made by thalweg - but left the other two. They didn't make any apology to the other people whose posts the mods deleted. And they still insisted that it was me being sexist for suggesting thalweg's post was offensive.)

Because I was simply following the written forum guidelines when I sent the private message to the moderators, I naturally queried the ban. It seemed strange to be banned for following the rules.  This is the what I got in reply (head vice mandatory):

I was dumbstruck!  Not only was I known to be one of the more polite and often friendly posters on the forum (albeit at times provocative - but only in the mind of the ultra conservative, reactionary white male, especially the climate science denying white male) but to be told I was sexist for alerting them to thalweg's post amazed me.

Allow me to say now what I didn't say back then, with apologies to Rebecca West:
"...I only know that I'm called sexist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat..."
 (HotCopperites will also be roaring with laughter at the thought that the General Manager of HotCopper regards any of his forums as 'academic'!!!  His Science and Medicine forum, which is where I used to post a lot, is appropriately called the S&M forum by HotCopperites.  Management has made sure that it's dominated by the scientific illiterati.  These 'proud-to-be-ignorant' science bashers, with the blessing of the forum moderators and management, defame scientists and turn any discussion about science or medicine into the latest paranoid conspiracy theory - straight from infowars.  As for the forum he said I'm too 'outspoken' to post in, click here and scroll to the bottom of the page to see the standard to which HotCopper management aspires!)

It gets worse!  HotCopper suggests women pretend to be men to play in their 'Men's Playground'

It gets even worse.  I began to wonder if I was still living in 2012 or if I'd somehow got caught up in Dr Who's Tardis and flung back in time.  This is what I was told by a female HotCopper employee, who obviously knows her place in that male domain or she would have taken action.  Here is part of her email to me  (my bold, admin's capitals):
I understand the make up of the forum and the bias at times. However, we have some really excellent female posters. Many don't EVER say they are female and have become very good at playing in the men's playground. I just know some are female, but remain quiet. Often it's harder once people say they are male or female, and being an anonymous forum poster has great merit.
She's suggesting I not let on I'm female and pretend to be a man to post on HotCopper?  And the Men's Playground? What the hell is that?  Men I mix with aren't overtly sexist and don't  consider their world a 'men's playground'.  About the only 'men's playgrounds' allowed in Australia, as far as I know, are some of the archaic Men's Clubs and the Catholic Church - and even the latter tolerates women (often very reluctantly) in many spheres of activity.  No business as far as I'm aware is allowed to discriminate on the grounds of sex as suggested by HotCopper admin.

Gabby has a brilliant cartoon which is a wonderful illustration of sexist male 'group think'.

Bullies are such slinking cowards

I subsequently lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission.  HotCopper immediately banned me permanently - which is arguably in direct contravention of the Sex Discrimination Act, which prohibits victimisation for making a complaint to the Commission.  The General Manager refused to engage with me in any conciliation process and refused to stop the victimisation.

Cowardly behaviour typical of a bully - in this case a sexist bully.

It's a strange feeling to find out that I, this little old lady from the bush, caused these characters (HotCopper management and the moderation team) to quiver and quake in their boots to such an extent that not only have they denied me access to their service, but any post even mentioning me by my forum name (MobyT) is deleted.  I have been told that anyone who mentions me is threatened with suspension*.  I believe I am unique in that regard.  There are threads on HotCopper not simply referring to other suspended posters by name, but discussing the merits or otherwise of their suspension.

*This ban against mentioning my HotCopper name MobyT apparently does not apply to the test site of the new HC web interface (not public to general subscribers, only available to selected HCers).    (Didn't last very long. 20 Dec 12)  (Hello HC-ers.  Happy holiday season all and stay safe if travelling.  Hope you are enjoying my blog.  Please feel free to make a comment.  You can remain anonymous.  20 December 2012)

Why go public?

I thought hard before I made the complaint to the Human Rights Commission and, when HotCopper refused to engage with me in conciliation, I thought hard about writing about the experience.

What prompted me to act?

Sure, the more primal feelings of anger and wanting some sort of revenge are mixed up in there somewhere.  However the main reason I went to the HR Commission was because it was a case of 'if I let myself be treated like a doormat, how many other women will suffer'

That same mix of reasons is why I started this blog. It's intended as a protest as well as a warning to others that there are still commercial businesses that demonstrate no regard for women or the law. After four years contributing to HotCopper, making more than 5,000 posts, and during which I put up with bullying, stalking and other harassment from right wing posters and moderators (as well as making lots of friends and getting numerous votes of appreciation from all sides of the spectrum), when I was banned because I followed their own rules I decided enough was enough.

(The other reason for going public is to set the record straight.  The General Manager deliberately out of spite or ignorance falsely wrote on my HotCopper profile that I was suspended 'pending legal action'.  I was not.   (The Human Rights Commission is not a court of law.)  At least one poster assumed I was the one who had done wrong (that legal action was being taken against me) and HotCopper did not disabuse him of that notion.  I made a complaint of discrimination and then, because of the resulting suspension, added the complaint of victimisation.)

Businesses in the twenty first century should be a long way beyond discriminating against women. and at no time has it been acceptable for men to gang up the way they did to bully and try to intimidate.  After all, this isn't some dinky little blog we're talking about.  This is a commercial business that boasts how large it is (though only a tiny proportion are women, according to the general manager - and no wonder!)  

Will the culture of HotCopper change?  Will it become female friendly?  Not while the current management is in place.  Misogynists will always be misogynists.  Sexist men will continue to consider women as second class. In my experience, owners/management of a business set the tone, appoint staff of similar persuasion to themselves (in this case moderators) and determine norms and culture.

You'd think sexism should have died out by now but it thrives in some quarters.  Women need to speak up about it, not put up with it.  Acting and speaking out won't change the attitudes of sexist bullies, but we may do enough to change their behaviour.

(I won't destroy the joint and that was never my intention.  If more women speak up when bullied or when men treat them like dirt, the next generation will hopefully be better off.)

December 2012

PS Apparently, as a result of my complaint, HotCopper has recently added 'sexist' to their list of TOU infringements in the drop down box and I believe they also appointed a mod who's a woman (making sure she was of the right political persuasion and was willing to carry out their (male) bidding, of course /s).  It hasn't stopped the mods (or anyone else) from showing their sexist side.

PPS In the comments, Ron correctly pointed out that some businesses have applied for and been given an exemption under the 'exemption' provisions of equal opportunity legislation. (He quoted Ferndale but I think he was probably referring to the Fernwood gyms because it is one of the few single sex businesses/clubs that allow women instead of barring them.)  To be fair, I don't think Ron was suggesting that HotCopper should be granted an exemption.  In any case, as far as I am aware HotCopper has never sought exemption under the Act to prevent women from subscribing and I strongly doubt that it would be successful if it were to try it on. (26 Dec 2012)


  1. Hi Moby

    I am Ronsterm on HC. I wondered where you got to earlier this year. I didn't agree with you about many things but I appreciated the work you put in to your posts. I looked up your profile at the time and saw "legal action pending", but I didn't know who initiated it against whom. Mind you, as soon as the legals(or even threats of legals) start, it's gloves off as anyone would know, and I would have done the same as HC management did in those circumstances. I would guess you would too if you were on the receiving end of a legal threat.

    The other day someone on S&M mentioned this site so I came for a look.
    Seems a huge overreaction IMO, and as I said later to the lads, it looks quite sad you going to all this trouble because you were punted by HC.
    This is what I said to Genericmicrobe:

    "Interesting further down the page though... Good old moby t (can we mention that name in china , oops I mean Australia?) rises again. Funny that, having a blog about a forum .... Having a good old whinge. Guess when it's too hot in the forum you can always cool down in a blogs spot love fest."

    Funny? Nah sad really that someone needs to set up a blog about an anonymous online life they once had. All that effort just to have a little girly whine. As I said, sad to see.
    Had to laugh though she says that she got the name "Hotwhopper" from a "respected science contributor". Almost spat my coffee all over the screen when I read that .lol


    and to Birdman



    "Feel free to post a comment. Posts that are generally polite and on topic are welcome. I'll draw the line with abusive posts and persistent troll posts. (If you fear retribution from that site that merely pretends to like 'free speech', you can always post your comment anonymously or under another name.)

    There is also a strict 'no spam' policy."

    In other words, she too merely pretends to have free speech, just that she gets to decide what "free speech" she likes. Disagree too much with her and you are instantly transformed into "abusive" bully" or "troll"m and out the door.

    If Moby wants some lessons in free speech she should have a look at the Jo Abess site. Jo is still a silly little warmist living in a green fantasy world but she is a true believer and is very hardworking and does put her money where her mouth is and accepts all comments( and very few of them are complimentary).

    I never minded Moby,she did put the effort in though I don't think she was as polite as she remembers herself to be. She was a bit sexist also.


  2. continued from last post

    As I said, I don't remember you to have been as polite as you think you were. Not particularly rude, a bit snide sometimes but still an asset to HC overall for the quality of your posts and the number of them too.


    "I was intrigued to find there is a still a sizeable sub-culture of sexist creatures of the male sex alive and well who hobnob on the internet. Unlike the men I mix and work with, these are not successful men comfortable with themselves. They act as if they have to put women down or worse, as in this case, bully them and deny them access to goods and services, in order to make themselves feel any sense of self worth."
    I call bullshit on the above. You spent enough time on HC to have no time for mixing with "successful men comfortable in themselves" and even if you did there still remains the question of why did you hang around HC till you were booted out if it were so full of people that you despise. The answer is simply sour grapes. Old Aesop had most things nailed.That is the motivation for this site, sour grapes. True? No need to admit it to me when you know it yourself.You would still be there now if you were allowed, "sizeable sub-culture of sexist creatures of the male sex alive and well who hobnob on the internet" notwithstanding.

    As to the main cause of your suspension, Thalwegs post. Why did you want that removed thus denying others the chance to make up their minds about the post and/or poster? I certainly would not seek to have any post removed or moderated and have never TOUed any post, nor have I ever put anyone on ignore. That sort of behaviour seems a bit precious to me, but that's just me. Thalwegs post was a little over the top, IMO, but it was just that, a post,an opinion and there's no reason to stop anyone expressing an opinion. Who gives a rat's about others opinions anyhow? I would not have moderated your post either, which is why I will never make it as a HC moderator lol

    You also seem to have a few facts wrong. For a start "No business as far as I'm aware is allowed to discriminate on the grounds of sex as suggested by HotCopper admin."
    Just off the top of my head, Ferndale women's only gyms.Can I expect to see you protesting against them too. If I could be bothered I'm sure I could track down many more such businesses.

    Secondly, more bullshit "but any post even mentioning me by my forum name (MobyT) is deleted. I have been told that anyone who mentions me is threatened with suspension*."
    Those posts above have been sitting in S&M for a couple of days now and nothing has come my way, no threats of suspension, no moderation even.

    Thirdly "Sure, the more primal feelings of anger and wanting some sort of revenge are mixed up in there somewhere. However the main reason I went to the HR Commission was because it was a case of 'if I let myself be treated like a doormat, how many other women will suffer'. "
    You are kidding yourself, Moby. You are simply hurt at the rejection and want to lash out but need to put an altruistic gloss on it lest this effort be seen as simply spite.

    to be continued
  3. continued from last post

    "Will the culture of HotCopper change? Will it become female friendly? Not while the current management is in place. Misogynists will always be misogynists. Sexist men will continue to consider women as second class. In my experience, owners/management of a business set the tone, appoint staff of similar persuasion to themselves (in this case moderators) and determine norms and culture."

    Why should it be "female friendly", whatever that means? It is what it is. I wouldn't expect the midwives forum to become more "male friendly" whatever that means nor would I expect the HotRod forum to be more attuned to yin energies. I realise that you would like to be fully accommodated (we all would, but life is not like that, so stop sounding like a petulant girl).
    "You'd think sexism should have died out by now but it thrives in some quarters. Women need to speak up about it, not put up with it. Acting and speaking out won't change the attitudes of sexist bullies, but we may do enough to change their behaviour."
    Are you talking sexism in general or just male sexism? Women are sexist too, you know. As you go on about sexism so much the phrase "methinks the lady doth protest too much" seems to fit. You focus on it so much that it appears that there is something else going on with you. You sound like a sexist bigot unable to accept the complexities of life and prefer a simple ideology of victimhood and oppressors to explain any failures and disappointments in your own life.

    Anyhow, time to go. Don't take the above as deliberate insults(they aren't meant that way) but just giving it to you straight. If they offend you then it's just too bad, I'm sure you can handle it.

    have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

    Cheers Ron 
  4. Hi Ron,
    Appreciate you taking the time to post and for your kind words about my posts, but you've missed the point.

    (I've just got back from a christmas get together so bear with me.)

    I didn't ask for thalweg's post to be deleted.

    I'll repeat that because it's fundamental.

    I did not ask for thalweg's post to be deleted.

    What happened was that two of my posts and at least three of Kaya's posts in that thread were deleted.

    One of my posts I didn't care that it was deleted - it was a sarcastic one. The other one of mine was replying to someone who asked me why I thought the other posts were sexist - and I politely explained why - but obviously enough people didn't like my explanation - and didn't like kaya's equally inoffensive posts so they tou'd them and got them deleted. So much for the 'free speech' they go on about!

    All I did was send a tou explaining to the mods why I thought our posts shouldn't have been deleted, especially in the light of thalweg's three posts that were all much the same (women are psychotic etc).

    For that I got slapped with an immediate 30 day suspension. Again - so much for 'free speech' or for following the rules.

    Even you should agree that was a dumb reaction from whatever mod it was. (I suspect it was a rogue mod who stopped being a mod shortly after.) Still all the mods are equally to blame because not one of them did anything about it then or later. And they had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.

    It was about nine hours later that someone else must have tou'd thalweg's post and one of the mods deleted one of them (but left the other two.)

    I mean what I said elsewhere - I didn't find the s&m forum sexist (except maybe for Jim "piffle" Cross).

    I really enjoyed reading different points of view on HC. I rarely sent tou's for that very reason.

    I didn't mind the bagging I got, some of it was really funny (as intended and often when unintended!) - except maybe when poor old Hanrahan and a couple of others went a bit over the top and said I was a paid stooge or one period when I was stalked. (I must say you sound a bit the same when you think I can't have a life if I post on HC. Writing is a big part of how I earn a crust. It doesn't take long to write a para or two or three :D)

    The general forum was another matter, though it's a bit better than it used to be. I didn't post there much anyway - and that's the one I was banned from.

    As for my name not being mentioned - all posts mentioning me at the time were all deleted or 'disappeared' altogether - and I've been told at least one person was threatened with suspension if they mentioned me. The mods have apparently changed their tune now.

    As for legal action - I didn't take any - and what HC did in the permanent suspension was arguably against the law as it's written quite specifically in the Act.

    BTW - I've had quite a few people from HC telling me they think I've summed up the mods and management pretty well, so it's not just me.

    I'm now having a bit of fun with the sillier posts on the S&M forum.

    It's all water under the bridge and on the plus side, I've learnt a lot about the 'conservative brain' that I'd never have otherwise - lol.

    Please send the guys on S&M my best regards. It's not them I took issue with, it's the mods and even more particularly the management.

    All the best and post safely. Gotta run - heading out to another 'do'...



    1. Hi Moby

      Thanks for that reply. A rogue mod, eh? .They probably have a solidarity thing like cops or bureaucrats or parents even, never admit a mistake and support each other right or wrong in front of the public or kids, whatever the case may be.

      "(I must say you sound a bit the same when you think I can't have a life if I post on HC. Writing is a big part of how I earn a crust. It doesn't take long to write a para or two or three :D)"

      No , not a stalker here, too lazy........lol

      As I said , a Merry Christmas( what remains of it) and a happy new year.

      cheers Ron
    2. Oops - just an unfortunate juxtaposition of ideas, Ron. I wasn't suggesting you were a stalker.

      Happy new year to you too.

      Cheers, MT.

  5. PS The real issue I had is not with the mods or the 30 day suspension, it's the way that HC management refused to engage in any conciliation, let alone let it get to that point.

    IMO it showed a contempt for women HC-ers and women in general and a contempt for the law and utter hypocrisy in regard to their constant wailing about loss of 'free speech'.

    I wonder if it goes all the way to the ownership or if it's just the management?
  6. "Not only was I known to be one of the more polite and often friendly posters "

    what a laugh, good riddance you stupid bitch, best decision the site ever made kicking your stupid arse to the curb
  7. Moby, your posts and this blog are always articulate, intelligent and polite. Comments like the one come from misogynists who are threatened by a woman with superior intellect than themselves.
  8. As someone who knows absolutely nothing about HotCopper or anything that happened in your case, I just want to say that, without a bit more context (at least, I hope that would fix it), thalweg's comment has too much gibberish for me to tell whether it's sexist or not. Seriously, I can't tell what he's trying to say, what point he's trying to make. His second paragraph in particular is pretty badly grammatically inconsistent, and his inclusion of a shopping list serves to divorce the meaning of the first half of the sentence from the second, to the point that I can't tell if he's for or against whatever it is he's talking about, which I'm also having trouble divining.


    1. Gibberish is a good description.

      What he's saying is that women who choose home births are selfish, dangerous, stupid, emotional, mentally deranged (mental misfire) and deserve to die etc etc. He elaborated on this general theme in other posts in the thread.

      He has a habit of calling everyone with whom he disagrees 'psychotic'.

  9. "I subsequently lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission. HotCopper immediately banned me permanently - which is arguably in direct contravention of the Sex Discrimination Act, which prohibits victimisation for making a complaint to the Commission."

    ROFLMAO!! You filed a complaint with the Human Rights Commission from being temporarily getting banned from a private Internet forum? Are you some form of lunatic?


    1. Not according to the Human Rights Commission, which accepted the complaint and dealt with it to the best of their ability.

      HotCopper is a commercial business operation offering services to the general public. As such it is subject to federal legislation. The owners and managers would be grossly offended to think anyone regarded it as a piddly little discussion board - though it may act that way.

  10. Your repliers remind us of a certain pickering chap who goes about his days poking fun at women for his own amusement the sick slug of a man with more ex-wives and children than there are letters in an alphabet.
  11. Good work. Oz and US have some cultural similarities in strong climate denial and misogynistic tendencies, at least in some areas. (I'm in Seattle, where it's fairly rare or at least repressed.)

    Here's an interview you might appreciate:
  12. I was until today a female on hotcopper, my treatment led me to you blog as I couldn't believe what I was facing, but it wasn't on climate change it appeared everywhere . I was having random posters just abusing my post for no reason. Another women made a post re pillows and where to get good ones, I posted back and after a couple of posts we got attacked by someone we had never heard of because we "clearly lived at home with mummy and if that was our biggest problem in life then we had to be great." I was dumbfounded, but the worst was when I suggested a male stop posting pictures of a toddler (probably his) as it was in the tou's and not appropriate. he said clearly I had an issue with it because I had been abused as a child. I immediately requested it to be modified, but it stayed there all day until he finally succumbed to the hundreds of posts to get rid it modified himself. Now I know why he was never banned and I was allowed to be treated in the manner I was. Interesting how that can still happen in this day and age.


    1. alj - you have my sympathy. HotCopper has to be the most sexist business operating in Australia. It's absolutely appalling. Is it still as homophobic and racist as it used to be as well? It wouldn't surprise me.

      It comes from the top, as you can see. The mods are selected based on their "fitting in" with the revolting culture.

      I tried and probably could have done better to expose them.

      I leave these articles as a cautionary tale for all decent, normal women and men in Australia and New Zealand.

      You may have seen my experience with one of the mods appointed since I left. Hisbehaviour was creepy in the extreme. (My article was deliberately "out there" and provocative, but the comments from P2W have to be seen to be believed. And that was mild, compared to some of what is encouraged at HotCopper itself.

      BTW, sorry for the late post. For older articles comments automatically go to moderation and I only just checked.

      There are some really nice people at HotCopper, despite the appalling behaviour of a few, and particularly the appalling behaviour and gross attitudes of the management and moderators.

      All the best. Come visit again :)

  13. Hi Sou. To answer your question yes Hotcopper is as racist and sexist as ever, probably more so than I have seen in the few years I have been a member. When I told my husband what had gone on, he said to me that I had made a flippant comment to him a few months ago how HC was no longer about the stock market and I had noticed that the posts were often full of a lack of intelligence and/or knowledge. Rest assured I think anybody who has any sort of smarts will see through HC and move on to another stock market forum and probably a lot have as there are more ignorant mindless people joining HC it appears just for the bullying. Anyway I would like to thankyou for your blog as I had many questions as to why this was happening and I googled "does hotcopper have double standards" and came across you. I no longer have questiones as I took what you have said and applied it to my own situation.
  14. Sou I was on hubby's mac and it came up with the HC page on general when I was trying to delete HC off the pages. Found this I thought maybe Profile

    Post #:
    Start of thread:

    i am of the opinion that only males are members of HC
    if you are female pls respond
    lets do a count....

    Then ljsilvers post straight afer


    Post #:
    fizz said: ↑
    A decent percentage of HC users are female. I know this because admin have stated it at times.

    Of that percentage, a very large percentage would likely only read up on stocks, so wont see your post.

    Of those that do see your post, a large percentage do not post, only read.

    So I'm guessing you wont get a huge response.

    And whats with 'ladies only'? Understand this is not twitter or facebook.

    No one gives a toss what gender you are here. No need to form a club.

    Arrogant male.

    I really wish they would delete me as I am embarrassed that I associated with them. Poor Fizz I hope she learns before she is permanently damaged
  15. I wonder what ASIC thinks of HotCopper? They play fast and loose in that arena, too. Or they did a couple of years ago.
  16. Strange to think that every ego maniac man who hate the woman has been born from the woman and could not exist otherwise - it is a weird position to come from no ?