More Sexism from Moderators on HotCopper: Breast-feeding is Arrogant!

On The Arrogance of Whipping Out Boobs In Public

To think HotCopper nearly appointed a new female moderator following my complaint.  Didn't they have a lucky escape.  I expect HotCopper management had second thoughts, figuring any woman, even one of their preferred ideological position, might try to create a female friendly environment and scare away all their current patrons.  (The bread and butter of HotCopper's preferred business model is misogynistic men from the extreme end of right wing nuttery).

The right to 'pop out a breast'?

Here is a comment from the moderator they chose instead - labelling as 'arrogant' women who breast-feed their infants in public. (Of course, Play2Win could be a woman who conforms to the recommendation of the HotCopper Administrator, that women should pretend to be men while on HotCopper's share trading discussion board.)

Source: HotCopper.com


Incidentally, the first poster in the thread (LJsilver) is apparently completely unaware that the female of all mammalian species (not just the human kind) suckle their infants with milk secreted from glands.  (The words 'mammal' and 'mammary' as in mammary gland are both derived from same Latin root.)

The OP implies that breast-feeding is instead some sort of strange and new politically correct fashion sweeping the western world of the human species.

Arrogant Tony pops out two breasts!

Let's take bets on HotCopper mods' 'opinion' of their darling, Tony Abbott, whipping out his boobs in public. (Another case of men wanting to set different 'rules' for men and women, no doubt!)

Image source: ThePunch.com.au

Breast-feeding mother - arrogant, eh?

Image source: Wikipedia

Update: Acknowledgement and Repentance?

Looks as if Play2Win has since used his powers of moderation to not simply delete the content of his comment (as seen above), but consistent with the HotCopper's inconsistent approach to 'openness and transparency' (ie only when it suits them) has erased all trace as if it never existed.  The other sexist (and islamophobic) comments in the thread are still there.

(Normal policy is for moderators to replace the post they find offensive with an explanation, leaving a record in place.  Not necessarily a rational explanation and at times not even a relevant explanation but it's some attempt to be open at least.  At other times, particularly with their favourites who 'err', they will simply erase all record of the comment as has happened here.)

On the plus side, maybe it's a sign that Play2Win recognises his post was sexist, which would be a (baby) step in the right direction.

Update 2:

Play2Win did not repent, he's doubled down on sexism.  He has resurrected his post word for word in another more recent thread about breast-feeding.  One in which HotCopperites all pile on with more sexism.  They even manage to use the thread (on breast-feeding) to air their racist bigotry.

What an ugly intolerant environment HotCopper has created and continues to cultivate. Disgusting in any circumstances, but especially so for a commercial business operation!

Update 3:

Play2Win clarifies his position in the comments below: It's not just arrogant to breastfeed in public, it's arrogant and disrespectful.

(Sadly, not even baby steps in the right direction.)

Update 4:

Among other attributes, Play2Win is a tad inconsistent, for example, he seemed irate that, following his suggestion order, I have advised people there is a maximum comment size (which, since most people write well within the character limit, I didn't know about, and thought was a worthwhile suggestion.)

Given this inconsistency, I can only hope the following is an accurate representation:

Play2Win clarifies his position further in yet another comment below: Breastfeeding women (and presumably their infants) are not just arrogant and disrespectful in putting the newborn's need for sustenance above the needs of others, they are also selfish and indulgent. ("...when being arrogant is putting your own selfish, indulgent actions above anyone elses").

Edging ever closer to this.

Play2Win is particularly concerned about "Sunday service", which going by the day chosen is probably a Christian service.  Perhaps he could look to Jesus and his mother to guide him.

Nursing Madonna (Madonna Lactans) by anonymous master of Bruges, 16th century. Museu de Aveiro, Portugal. Photo: Alvesgaspar (March 2012)

Click here for other images of the Nursing Madonna.

Update 5:

Play2Win writes: 'I will test the notion. The next time I see a woman breast feeding I will sit right next to her. I won't perve. I just sit next to her like I would with any member of the public. The reaction will be interesting. If she flinches one iota then I rest my case.'

Ugh - creepy. With the discussion board run by people like this is it any wonder this goes on?

HotWhopper of the Week: Feminism is a Lysenko plot

More misogyny anyone?

Just when you thought you'd seen it all.

We all know that the ghost of Lysenko is sending climate science deniers to the gulag, when he's not putting them to death.  Now it looks as if that stalinist bureaucrat has risen from dead once more, this time to send sexist men to the gulag.

Source: HotCopper.com

Oh No! Women are rejecting their biological role and getting paid to work

HotCopper regular, Rembrandt, says "good article" and elaborates:

All fems are directed by dogma to that of adopting sublimation .. rejection of their sex and biological roles for the supposed higher goal of self-actualisation = nihilism...

... In other words, the fems strident cries for more FREEDOM AND CHOICE today is as the article proclaims nothing more than more demands by Me, with Me and for Me !!
Source: HotCopper.com

If I interpret correctly, in his mind, women who aspire to anything in their lives other than unpaid labour and popping out babies one after another for twenty or thirty years are unutterably selfish.

Women shouldn't have choice - slavery is their proper destiny

Slippin chimes in, observing dour faced women who he reckons would have been better off had they chosen to be destitute from the outset and stuck in a sour marriage slaving (unpaid) for their 'man'.

Having recently re entered the workforce after a 5 year hiatus I can attest to the above. I have never seen or worked with so many dour faced 40 years plus women. ...

...Most of these women have ditched their husband (or been ditched) and are chasing something that only exists in glossy womens magazines. Their desire can be boiled down to one word...choice. The ability to choose your destiny. However the glossies failed to mention one thing...choice is no choice at all. Keep working honey cos one day you might get the pension and be able to live in a crime ridden neighbourhood where you may find your choices severely restricted.
Source: HotCopper.com

No-one disagrees with any of them - that's HotCopper.

Does sound like sour grapes, doesn't it.  Did their wives eventually choose a 'life' over them?

Only men are allowed to reject their biological role?

And what about the 'biological role' of men?  How do these three justify men's 'choice' of paid employment instead of devoting themselves 100% to their biological role?

Maybe on the basis that men often have to pay to pursue their biological role (so they have to earn the $$ to do so somehow or other), whereas women can get paid for pursuing theirs.

Or maybe, despite this being the twenty first century, these three genuinely believe men have an innate right to 'choose' and women, being lesser creatures, don't.

HotCopper Proud to Award Gold Stars for Sexist and Racist Posts

By the way, slippin won a gold star for that post above.  It was considered by HotCopper share traders to be a 'top rated post'.

Slippin's post didn't do quite as well as those who jumped to the conclusion that an asylum seeker raped a student - HotCopper handed out lots of gold stars to all the people who jumped to that conclusion (based not on any arrest, nor any police report, nor anything at all except speculation by shock jock Ray Hadley, who I guess hates asylum seekers even more than he hates women).  In keeping with HotCopper's misogynist code, the brightest gold star was given to kozzie who was able to have a dig at both asylum seekers and women in one short comment.  Kozzie reckons it was all the fault of PM Gillard and Senator Sarah Hanson-Young.

Going by past experience, if anyone said that slippin and other bigoted posters on HotCopper were being sexist or racist, they'd probably get banned from the forum.  (As if to underscore the tone preferred by HotCopper management, about the only poster to voice an objection to the ugly tone of the asylum seeker thread had at least two posts deleted by the moderators.)

As HotCopper Management will tell you, it's sexist to call out sexism, if you are a woman.

HotWhopper Classic: Misogyny and Sexism

As anyone who's done any work in organisational development knows, the norms and values are established by those in charge.  If an organisation is broken it's extremely hard to fix without changing the leadership.  New brooms sweep the cleanest.

If you run a discussion board it's easy to make sure the subscriber base reflects your own values, if that's what you want.  Select moderators who are as sexist as yourself and they'll get the message across loud and clear.  If an errant subscriber doesn't conform and makes the mistake of standing up for women (or science), you can rely on your pet moderators to gang up and ban them forever. (Bricks and mortar businesses have to be a bit more discrete about their misogyny and sexism.  If they are small enough they can usually get around this problem by making sure they don't hire women in the first place, except to make the coffee, 'man' (yes, 'man') the front desk and answer the phone.)

Judge for yourself - compare the votes in the examples below!

Woman - how dare you intrude on the 'Domain of Men'!

Here are some posts from a classic sexist thread (subs req'd) on the HotCopper discussion board.  You can see for yourselves the type of people the operators aim to attract and, unsurprisingly, succeed.  Golfzoner starts a lively discussion with this:

Golfzoner was was roundly applauded by HotCopper-ites for telling it like it is.  So much so that thirty one more people agreed with him than disagreed!  Full-blooded male HotCopper-ites believe the world would be so much better if women weren't such brazen hussies.  A woman's place is barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen.  She should be subservient to her 'man'.   Woman's sole purpose in life is to slave over a hot stove and keep her master comfortable.

Battle-Hardened, Command-Barking, Brick Out-Houses with a Vagina

The discussion thread was very long.  Here are a few more snippets:  No battle hardened, command-barking, brick out-houses with a vagina for Sonpa:

The 50kg Clubber

One can only marvel at the sort of mentality of HotCopper moderators who unanimously agree that writing about climate science research is far too 'outspoken' to be tolerated on HotCopper, but seem happy enough for someone to write about their suspect sexual proclivities - from Linebacker (yes, really!).  You couldn't make this up.  Although it was buried in the discussion it still attracted six more 'thumbs up' than 'thumbs down':

The Men Pile On

The discussion went on and on for more than two weeks. I could show you any of dozens of other misogynistic or sexist comments from different HotCopper subscribers.  Men who didn't pile on with outright sexism indicated they thought women who objected were over-reacting and should 'lighten up'.  

But not all men agreed.  A few were as disgusted as we women were.

Too "outspoken"

Here's a comment from Dogby that most subscribers didn't like.  Unlike golfzoner and linebacker, it looks as if dogby must have been too 'outspoken' for HotCopper - he's been banned:

What about the women?

Yes, some women are bold enough to venture into the Men's Playground. Kate dismissed the thread with this sharp comment:

And Oxy came straight to the point:

In fact I made a few comments myself and this must have been about the only time that Oxy and I agreed. (IIRC she has libertarian leanings, which forbid her from accepting climate science.)

Get off your soap box!

HotCopper moderators tell people who protest sexism to 'get off their soap box'.  Interesting to be reminded of the sort of soap boxes they prefer.

PostScript: This article and subsequent comments may help explain why so many people with twisted views are attracted to HotCopper and why so many ordinary people find it repugnant. Not merely unnaturally prudish or sexist but arguably bordering on intimidation of women.

Misogyny is Ugly, Sexism is Unacceptable - Prime Minister Gillard's speech

Given the recent news that the Slipper vs Ashby case been thrown out, I thought again about the speech that Ms Gillard made in October this year (2012).

PM Gillard made a wonderful speech about misogyny, prompted by the Federal opposition challenging the government to remove the speaker (Peter Slipper) or be considered misogynistic. (Some highly offensive text messages from Peter Slipper had recently been made public.)

The PM referred to several instances where the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, showed his true, sexist colours.  If you can't wait to watch the video, here are some of items:

• Tony Abbott said: "If it's true, Stavros, that men have more  power generally speaking than women, is that a bad thing?"
• As a follow up comment to "I want my daughter to have the same opportunity as my son." Tony Abbott retorted: "Yes I completely agree. But what if men are by physiology or temperament more adapted to exercise authority or to issue command?"
• In response to a comment "I think it is very hard to deny that there is an under-representation of women". Tony Abbott responds: "But now, there's an assumption that this is a bad thing."
• Tony Abbott in his past role as Minister for Health in March 2004: "Abortion is the easy way out."
• Tony Abbott, during his campaign to oppose the introduction of carbon pricing, painting his image of women's roles in modern Australia: "When the housewives of Australia need to do what the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing.
• Tony Abbott catcalling at PM Gillard, across the table in Parliament, referring to the Prime Minister's relationship with her partner: "If the Prime Minister wants to politically speaking make an honest woman of herself!"
• Tony Abbott speaking next to a sign by his supporters with the words"Ditch the Witch" and one that described the Prime Minister as "A man's bitch". 

Sexism from HotCopper Moderator in response to the speech

The speech drew some discussion on the HotCopper share discussion board.  They provide further evidence of the sexism of moderators on HotCopper.  Look at the response by the moderator Poyndexter to this comment:

Link to the thread is here (subs req'd)

The original poster says Abbott doesn't 'hate' women because he married one and had three daughters.  Given his sexist stance as reported by the Prime Minister in the video, what would it take to persuade ikhutch that Abbott was at best sexist and has a tendency to misogyny?  Perhaps he would have to keep his wife locked up barefoot in the kitchen and kill off his daughters?  Knowing women, marrying women and employing women is not evidence that a man is not sexist.  His words show his attitude towards women, just as Poyndexter's words do and the actions of HotCopper management and moderators do.

And Poyndexter has found someone who agrees with him that the Prime Minister "trumped up and orchestrated" her comments about Tony Abbott.  Click here to go to the thread (subs req'd).

Too often some men will say we women over-react when we object to being demeaned, sexually harassed, abused or otherwise treated as second class humans or worse.  It's similar to climate science denial.  Men gang up to comfort each other that women should cop sexism without complaint.  Thank goodness there are many strong women and men in the world who see injustice for what it is and have the spine and will to change things.

We are entitled to a better standard than this

Julia Gillards closing words were: We are entitled to a better standard than this.

HotCopper doesn't think so - HotCopper bans women for objecting to revolting sexist comments.  I can't see standards improving under the current HotCopper management, with its sexist view of the world, racist inclinations and its tendency to silence anyone whose point of view is not at the extreme end of right wing ideology.  However maybe one of these days there will be a change of guard at HotCopper.  You never know, ownership might change, it's changed hands a few times before.  With all the baby boomers retiring more women are keen to manage their retirement savings.  A new breed of operator could sweep out all the muck and transform the 'Men's Playground', rejuvenating it into a more tolerant, vibrant place where women and men could engage with each other without women having to pretend they are men and put up with all the sexist crap dished out by management, moderators and some subscribers.

Sexism and oafishness

As you'll find in various dark and dingy spots across the internet, some HotCopper posters are unashamedly sexist.

Does anyone remember the days when you'd come across an uneducated oaf who said of any successful woman that she slept her way to the top or assumed she was lesbian?

You know what? People like that still exist and huddle together on sites like HotCopper, emboldened as they gang up and find the site supports or at worst tolerates their bigotry. Heaven only knows what their social network is like in real life.  Most of them are getting a bit long in the tooth and they don't seem to get out much.  Some of them have even had a decent education but may fall short when it comes to self-esteem.

There is no need to mince words here.  For example, it's not uncommon for some men to come across as deeply insecure when it comes to equal opportunity:

There are quite a few more where that came from (subs req'd).

On HotCopper, forum moderators don't respect women.  They are much more likely to delete a post about women who experience sexism (subs req'd) as they did in this case (click here for the original article by Tracey Spicer),

than delete a post that puts women down (subs req'd), despite the fact that the post below contains more offensive language than the post above that was deleted.

It's sexist to point out sexism? Huh?

The people who run HotCopper often come across as being sexist to the core as I experienced.  In my case, when I posted a comment objecting to nasty sexism, forum management even had the cheek to tell me I was the one being sexist and banned me from posting!  Their emails to me indicated they would score about 9/10 on the oafish scale.  Rude and crude. Surprisingly so for what portrays itself as a business.  (You'd think ASIC would have required a minimum standard of decorum.)