Note: This was originally posted as a blog page rather than a blog post. It is preserved here, with all comments.
Sou (aka MobyT) - April 2015.
Women are not welcome on HotCopper (unless they know their 'place')
Until recently, the last time I was seriously and blatantly discriminated against because of my sex (that I know of) was the year before Equal Opportunity Legislation was introduced in NSW way back in the mid-1970s. Then in the early 80s one of my several jobs was to manage the introduction of EEO policies and procedures. I worked in a male dominated organisation. When I came across anything that could be viewed as discriminatory, whether a policy or something someone did or said, the invariable reaction from the 'bosses' was an immediate 'please tell us how to fix it!' These were mature self-confident successful men who viewed women as equals and wanted to make sure we were treated as such.
I was intrigued to find there is a still a sizeable sub-culture of sexist creatures of the male sex alive and well who hobnob on the internet. Unlike the men I mix and work with, these are not successful men comfortable with themselves. They act as if they have to put women down or worse, as in this case, bully them and deny them access to goods and services, in order to make themselves feel any sense of self worth.
Misogynists made welcome at HotCopper
Earlier this year (2012) I was banned from the share trading discussion board, HotCopper, because I sent a private message to the moderators and made a subsequent complaint. HotCopper is a commercial business that boasts of being "
Australia's largest stock trading and investor internet discussion forum with over 170,000 active members."
My private message to the moderators was along the lines that calling women paranoid, schizophrenic and deserving of death could be viewed by some people (not all, obviously) as a tad sexist and misogynistic.
Here is one of the posts to which I was referring - a hateful post about a women who died after childbirth.
Good riddance, he writes,
arrogant, self-interested, dangerous, mentally misfiring, dysfunctional.
Thing is, the reason I wrote to the mods was because they deleted some posts that followed the hate posts made by thalweg (or acreage1 as he was then). I was explaining that some of us thought his posts were over the top and figured if any posts should have been removed from the thread, his would have been at the top of the list. The mods disagreed as we shall see.
Forum management chose not to remove thalweg's revolting misogynistic posts. They either agreed with them or they decided it was 'free speech'. The moderators decided the six or so posts saying they didn't much appreciate sexist attitudes, particularly like that shown by thalweg, did not constitute "free speech" and must be deleted because they offended people who hold attitudes like thalweg. (As an aside, most of thalweg's posts are along these lines. Yet he has never been suspended even for a day!)
In what universe is it sexist to point out hateful sexism? Only in the alternate (sexist) reality of HotCopper
After I saw all the polite posts deleted (one from me and some from other people) as well as my one narky post, I sent the private message to the moderators (TOU) alerting them to thalweg's three disgusting posts, assuming they hadn't noticed them even though they'd been up for hours.
The reaction was instantaneous and vicious. But it wasn't thalweg's posts they reacted to, it was the fact that a mere woman would dare to say they were offensive. I was immediately suspended from the forum for an entire month (most suspensions are for a day or two) and told that it was I who was being sexist. Thalweg's posts were given the mod's blessing and allowed to remain.
Mods and management, who often moan about the death of 'free speech', decided to stop me from 'speaking' altogether. Free speech to extreme conservatives apparently only applies to speeches they like to hear. (Consider the
Australian's editorial of 11 December 2012 seeking freedom to 'offend' while it has tried to
stifle freedom of speech in the past.)
(Several hours later another moderator removed one of the three hate posts made by thalweg - but left the other two. They didn't make any apology to the other people whose posts the mods deleted. And they still insisted that it was me being sexist for suggesting thalweg's post was offensive.)
Because I was simply following the written forum guidelines when I sent the private message to the moderators, I naturally queried the ban. It seemed strange to be banned for following the rules. This is the what I got in reply (head vice mandatory):
I was dumbstruck! Not only was I known to be one of the more polite and often friendly posters on the forum (albeit at times provocative - but only in the mind of the ultra conservative, reactionary white male, especially the climate science denying white male) but to be told I was sexist for alerting them to thalweg's post amazed me.
Allow me to say now what I didn't say back then, with apologies to Rebecca West:
"...I only know that I'm called sexist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat..."
(HotCopperites will also be roaring with laughter at the thought that the General Manager of HotCopper regards
any of his forums as 'academic'!!! His Science and Medicine forum, which is where I used to post a lot, is appropriately called the S&M forum by HotCopperites. Management has made sure that it's dominated by the scientific
illiterati. These 'proud-to-be-ignorant' science bashers, with the blessing of the forum moderators and management, defame scientists and turn any discussion about science or medicine into the latest paranoid conspiracy theory - straight from infowars. As for the forum he said I'm too 'outspoken' to post in,
click here and scroll to the bottom of the page to see the standard to which HotCopper management aspires!)
It gets even worse. I began to wonder if I was still living in 2012 or if I'd somehow got caught up in Dr Who's Tardis and flung back in time. This is what I was told by a female HotCopper employee, who obviously knows her place in that male domain or she would have taken action. Here is part of her email to me (my bold, admin's capitals):
I understand the make up of the forum and the bias at times.
However, we have some really excellent female posters. Many don't EVER say they are female and have become very good at playing in the men's playground. I just know some are female, but remain quiet.
Often it's harder once people say they are male or female, and being an anonymous forum poster has great merit.
She's suggesting I not let on I'm female and
pretend to be a man to post on HotCopper?
And
the Men's Playground? What the hell is that? Men I mix with aren't overtly sexist and don't consider their world a 'men's playground'. About the only 'men's playgrounds' allowed in Australia, as far as I know, are some of the archaic Men's Clubs and the Catholic Church - and even the latter tolerates women (often very reluctantly) in many spheres of activity. No business as far as I'm aware is allowed to discriminate on the grounds of sex as suggested by HotCopper admin.
Gabby
has a brilliant cartoon which is a wonderful illustration of sexist male 'group think'.
Bullies are such slinking cowards
I subsequently lodged a complaint with the Human Rights Commission. HotCopper immediately banned me permanently - which is arguably in direct contravention of the Sex Discrimination Act, which prohibits victimisation for making a complaint to the Commission. The General Manager refused to engage with me in any conciliation process and refused to stop the victimisation.
Cowardly behaviour typical of a bully - in this case a sexist bully.
It's a strange feeling to find out that I, this little old lady from the bush, caused these characters (HotCopper management and the moderation team) to quiver and quake in their boots to such an extent that not only have they denied me access to their service, but any post even mentioning me by my forum name (MobyT) is deleted. I have been told that anyone who mentions me is threatened with suspension*. I believe I am unique in that regard. There are threads on HotCopper not simply referring to other suspended posters by name, but discussing the merits or otherwise of their suspension.
*This ban against mentioning my HotCopper name MobyT apparently does not apply to the test site of the new HC web interface (not public to general subscribers, only available to selected HCers). (Didn't last very long. 20 Dec 12) (Hello HC-ers. Happy holiday season all and stay safe if travelling. Hope you are enjoying my blog. Please feel free to make a comment. You can remain anonymous. 20 December 2012)
Why go public?
I thought hard before I made the complaint to the Human Rights Commission and, when HotCopper refused to engage with me in conciliation, I thought hard about writing about the experience.
What prompted me to act?
Sure, the more primal feelings of anger and wanting some sort of revenge are mixed up in there somewhere. However the main reason I went to the HR Commission was because it was a case of
'if I let myself be treated like a doormat, how many other women will suffer'.
That same mix of reasons is why I started this blog. It's intended as a protest as well as a warning to others that there are still commercial businesses that demonstrate no regard for women or the law. After four years contributing to HotCopper, making more than 5,000 posts, and during which I put up with bullying, stalking and other harassment from right wing posters and moderators (as well as making lots of friends and getting numerous votes of appreciation from all sides of the spectrum), when I was banned because I followed their own rules I decided enough was enough.
(The other reason for going public is to set the record straight. The General Manager deliberately out of spite or ignorance falsely wrote on my HotCopper profile that I was suspended 'pending legal action'. I was not. (The Human Rights Commission is not a court of law.) At least one poster assumed I was the one who had done wrong (that legal action was being taken against me) and HotCopper did not disabuse him of that notion. I made a complaint of discrimination and then, because of the resulting suspension, added the complaint of victimisation.)
Businesses in the twenty first century should be a long way beyond discriminating against women. and at no time has it been acceptable for men to gang up the way they did to bully and try to intimidate. After all, this isn't some dinky little blog we're talking about. This is a commercial business that boasts how large it is (though only a tiny proportion are women, according to the general manager - and no wonder!)
Will the culture of HotCopper change? Will it become female friendly? Not while the current management is in place. Misogynists will always be misogynists. Sexist men will continue to consider women as second class. In my experience, owners/management of a business set the tone, appoint staff of similar persuasion to themselves (in this case moderators) and determine norms and culture.
You'd think sexism should have died out by now but it thrives in some quarters. Women need to speak up about it, not put up with it. Acting and speaking out won't change the attitudes of sexist bullies, but we may do enough to change their behaviour.
(I won't
destroy the joint and that was never my intention. If more women speak up when bullied or when men treat them like dirt, the next generation will hopefully be better off.)
MobyT
December 2012
PS Apparently, as a result of my complaint, HotCopper has recently added 'sexist' to their list of TOU infringements in the drop down box and I believe they also appointed a mod who's a woman (making sure she was of the right political persuasion and was willing to carry out their (male) bidding, of course /s). It hasn't stopped the mods (or anyone else) from showing their sexist side.
PPS In the comments, Ron correctly pointed out that some businesses have applied for and been given an exemption under the 'exemption' provisions of equal opportunity legislation. (He quoted Ferndale but I think he was probably referring to the Fernwood gyms because it is one of the few single sex businesses/clubs that allow women instead of barring them.) To be fair, I don't think Ron was suggesting that HotCopper should be granted an exemption. In any case, as far as I am aware HotCopper has never sought exemption under the Act to prevent women from subscribing and I strongly doubt that it would be successful if it were to try it on. (26 Dec 2012)
21 comments:
I am Ronsterm on HC. I wondered where you got to earlier this year. I didn't agree with you about many things but I appreciated the work you put in to your posts. I looked up your profile at the time and saw "legal action pending", but I didn't know who initiated it against whom. Mind you, as soon as the legals(or even threats of legals) start, it's gloves off as anyone would know, and I would have done the same as HC management did in those circumstances. I would guess you would too if you were on the receiving end of a legal threat.
The other day someone on S&M mentioned this site so I came for a look.
Seems a huge overreaction IMO, and as I said later to the lads, it looks quite sad you going to all this trouble because you were punted by HC.
This is what I said to Genericmicrobe:
...............
GM
"Interesting further down the page though... Good old moby t (can we mention that name in china , oops I mean Australia?) rises again. Funny that, having a blog about a forum .... Having a good old whinge. Guess when it's too hot in the forum you can always cool down in a blogs spot love fest."
..........................
Funny? Nah sad really that someone needs to set up a blog about an anonymous online life they once had. All that effort just to have a little girly whine. As I said, sad to see.
Had to laugh though she says that she got the name "Hotwhopper" from a "respected science contributor". Almost spat my coffee all over the screen when I read that .lol
cheers
...........................
and to Birdman
...........................
Birdman
"Feel free to post a comment. Posts that are generally polite and on topic are welcome. I'll draw the line with abusive posts and persistent troll posts. (If you fear retribution from that site that merely pretends to like 'free speech', you can always post your comment anonymously or under another name.)
There is also a strict 'no spam' policy."
..............................
In other words, she too merely pretends to have free speech, just that she gets to decide what "free speech" she likes. Disagree too much with her and you are instantly transformed into "abusive" bully" or "troll"m and out the door.
If Moby wants some lessons in free speech she should have a look at the Jo Abess site. Jo is still a silly little warmist living in a green fantasy world but she is a true believer and is very hardworking and does put her money where her mouth is and accepts all comments( and very few of them are complimentary).
I never minded Moby,she did put the effort in though I don't think she was as polite as she remembers herself to be. She was a bit sexist also.
cheers
...........................
continued
As I said, I don't remember you to have been as polite as you think you were. Not particularly rude, a bit snide sometimes but still an asset to HC overall for the quality of your posts and the number of them too.
Anyhow:
"I was intrigued to find there is a still a sizeable sub-culture of sexist creatures of the male sex alive and well who hobnob on the internet. Unlike the men I mix and work with, these are not successful men comfortable with themselves. They act as if they have to put women down or worse, as in this case, bully them and deny them access to goods and services, in order to make themselves feel any sense of self worth."
.................................
I call bullshit on the above. You spent enough time on HC to have no time for mixing with "successful men comfortable in themselves" and even if you did there still remains the question of why did you hang around HC till you were booted out if it were so full of people that you despise. The answer is simply sour grapes. Old Aesop had most things nailed.That is the motivation for this site, sour grapes. True? No need to admit it to me when you know it yourself.You would still be there now if you were allowed, "sizeable sub-culture of sexist creatures of the male sex alive and well who hobnob on the internet" notwithstanding.
As to the main cause of your suspension, Thalwegs post. Why did you want that removed thus denying others the chance to make up their minds about the post and/or poster? I certainly would not seek to have any post removed or moderated and have never TOUed any post, nor have I ever put anyone on ignore. That sort of behaviour seems a bit precious to me, but that's just me. Thalwegs post was a little over the top, IMO, but it was just that, a post,an opinion and there's no reason to stop anyone expressing an opinion. Who gives a rat's about others opinions anyhow? I would not have moderated your post either, which is why I will never make it as a HC moderator lol
You also seem to have a few facts wrong. For a start "No business as far as I'm aware is allowed to discriminate on the grounds of sex as suggested by HotCopper admin."
Just off the top of my head, Ferndale women's only gyms.Can I expect to see you protesting against them too. If I could be bothered I'm sure I could track down many more such businesses.
Secondly, more bullshit "but any post even mentioning me by my forum name (MobyT) is deleted. I have been told that anyone who mentions me is threatened with suspension*."
Those posts above have been sitting in S&M for a couple of days now and nothing has come my way, no threats of suspension, no moderation even.
Thirdly "Sure, the more primal feelings of anger and wanting some sort of revenge are mixed up in there somewhere. However the main reason I went to the HR Commission was because it was a case of 'if I let myself be treated like a doormat, how many other women will suffer'. "
You are kidding yourself, Moby. You are simply hurt at the rejection and want to lash out but need to put an altruistic gloss on it lest this effort be seen as simply spite.
to be continued
...........................
"Will the culture of HotCopper change? Will it become female friendly? Not while the current management is in place. Misogynists will always be misogynists. Sexist men will continue to consider women as second class. In my experience, owners/management of a business set the tone, appoint staff of similar persuasion to themselves (in this case moderators) and determine norms and culture."
..........................
Why should it be "female friendly", whatever that means? It is what it is. I wouldn't expect the midwives forum to become more "male friendly" whatever that means nor would I expect the HotRod forum to be more attuned to yin energies. I realise that you would like to be fully accommodated (we all would, but life is not like that, so stop sounding like a petulant girl).
...........................
"You'd think sexism should have died out by now but it thrives in some quarters. Women need to speak up about it, not put up with it. Acting and speaking out won't change the attitudes of sexist bullies, but we may do enough to change their behaviour."
..............................
Are you talking sexism in general or just male sexism? Women are sexist too, you know. As you go on about sexism so much the phrase "methinks the lady doth protest too much" seems to fit. You focus on it so much that it appears that there is something else going on with you. You sound like a sexist bigot unable to accept the complexities of life and prefer a simple ideology of victimhood and oppressors to explain any failures and disappointments in your own life.
Anyhow, time to go. Don't take the above as deliberate insults(they aren't meant that way) but just giving it to you straight. If they offend you then it's just too bad, I'm sure you can handle it.
have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
Cheers Ron
Appreciate you taking the time to post and for your kind words about my posts, but you've missed the point.
(I've just got back from a christmas get together so bear with me.)
I didn't ask for thalweg's post to be deleted.
I'll repeat that because it's fundamental.
I did not ask for thalweg's post to be deleted.
What happened was that two of my posts and at least three of Kaya's posts in that thread were deleted.
One of my posts I didn't care that it was deleted - it was a sarcastic one. The other one of mine was replying to someone who asked me why I thought the other posts were sexist - and I politely explained why - but obviously enough people didn't like my explanation - and didn't like kaya's equally inoffensive posts so they tou'd them and got them deleted. So much for the 'free speech' they go on about!
All I did was send a tou explaining to the mods why I thought our posts shouldn't have been deleted, especially in the light of thalweg's three posts that were all much the same (women are psychotic etc).
For that I got slapped with an immediate 30 day suspension. Again - so much for 'free speech' or for following the rules.
Even you should agree that was a dumb reaction from whatever mod it was. (I suspect it was a rogue mod who stopped being a mod shortly after.) Still all the mods are equally to blame because not one of them did anything about it then or later. And they had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.
It was about nine hours later that someone else must have tou'd thalweg's post and one of the mods deleted one of them (but left the other two.)
I mean what I said elsewhere - I didn't find the s&m forum sexist (except maybe for Jim "piffle" Cross).
I really enjoyed reading different points of view on HC. I rarely sent tou's for that very reason.
I didn't mind the bagging I got, some of it was really funny (as intended and often when unintended!) - except maybe when poor old Hanrahan and a couple of others went a bit over the top and said I was a paid stooge or one period when I was stalked. (I must say you sound a bit the same when you think I can't have a life if I post on HC. Writing is a big part of how I earn a crust. It doesn't take long to write a para or two or three :D)
The general forum was another matter, though it's a bit better than it used to be. I didn't post there much anyway - and that's the one I was banned from.
As for my name not being mentioned - all posts mentioning me at the time were all deleted or 'disappeared' altogether - and I've been told at least one person was threatened with suspension if they mentioned me. The mods have apparently changed their tune now.
As for legal action - I didn't take any - and what HC did in the permanent suspension was arguably against the law as it's written quite specifically in the Act.
BTW - I've had quite a few people from HC telling me they think I've summed up the mods and management pretty well, so it's not just me.
I'm now having a bit of fun with the sillier posts on the S&M forum.
It's all water under the bridge and on the plus side, I've learnt a lot about the 'conservative brain' that I'd never have otherwise - lol.
Please send the guys on S&M my best regards. It's not them I took issue with, it's the mods and even more particularly the management.
All the best and post safely. Gotta run - heading out to another 'do'...
MobyT
Thanks for that reply. A rogue mod, eh? .They probably have a solidarity thing like cops or bureaucrats or parents even, never admit a mistake and support each other right or wrong in front of the public or kids, whatever the case may be.
...........................
"(I must say you sound a bit the same when you think I can't have a life if I post on HC. Writing is a big part of how I earn a crust. It doesn't take long to write a para or two or three :D)"
...........................
No , not a stalker here, too lazy........lol
As I said , a Merry Christmas( what remains of it) and a happy new year.
cheers Ron
Happy new year to you too.
Cheers, MT.
IMO it showed a contempt for women HC-ers and women in general and a contempt for the law and utter hypocrisy in regard to their constant wailing about loss of 'free speech'.
I wonder if it goes all the way to the ownership or if it's just the management?
what a laugh, good riddance you stupid bitch, best decision the site ever made kicking your stupid arse to the curb
What he's saying is that women who choose home births are selfish, dangerous, stupid, emotional, mentally deranged (mental misfire) and deserve to die etc etc. He elaborated on this general theme in other posts in the thread.
He has a habit of calling everyone with whom he disagrees 'psychotic'.
ROFLMAO!! You filed a complaint with the Human Rights Commission from being temporarily getting banned from a private Internet forum? Are you some form of lunatic?
HotCopper is a commercial business operation offering services to the general public. As such it is subject to federal legislation. The owners and managers would be grossly offended to think anyone regarded it as a piddly little discussion board - though it may act that way.
Here's an interview you might appreciate:
http://www.yesmagazine.org/happiness/beauty-feeds-a-different-kind-hunger-terry-tempest-williams
It comes from the top, as you can see. The mods are selected based on their "fitting in" with the revolting culture.
I tried and probably could have done better to expose them.
I leave these articles as a cautionary tale for all decent, normal women and men in Australia and New Zealand.
You may have seen my experience with one of the mods appointed since I left. Hisbehaviour was creepy in the extreme. (My article was deliberately "out there" and provocative, but the comments from P2W have to be seen to be believed. And that was mild, compared to some of what is encouraged at HotCopper itself.
BTW, sorry for the late post. For older articles comments automatically go to moderation and I only just checked.
There are some really nice people at HotCopper, despite the appalling behaviour of a few, and particularly the appalling behaviour and gross attitudes of the management and moderators.
All the best. Come visit again :)
Follow
fizz
Date:
15/07/14
Time:
23:09:41
Post #:
13664701
Start of thread:
IP:
1.122.xxx.xxx
poll
women...???
i am of the opinion that only males are members of HC
if you are female pls respond
lets do a count....
Then ljsilvers post straight afer
LJsilver
Date:
15/07/14
Time:
23:23:39
Post #:
13664730
IP:
101.175.xxx.xxx
fizz said: ↑
A decent percentage of HC users are female. I know this because admin have stated it at times.
Of that percentage, a very large percentage would likely only read up on stocks, so wont see your post.
Of those that do see your post, a large percentage do not post, only read.
So I'm guessing you wont get a huge response.
And whats with 'ladies only'? Understand this is not twitter or facebook.
No one gives a toss what gender you are here. No need to form a club.
Regards,
Arrogant male.
I really wish they would delete me as I am embarrassed that I associated with them. Poor Fizz I hope she learns before she is permanently damaged