tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post6980808372499746190..comments2024-03-25T05:30:23.847+11:00Comments on HotWhopper: Slaying the ocean dragons at WUWTSouhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-43346432303633974592014-12-11T20:04:02.667+11:002014-12-11T20:04:02.667+11:00Sure, mixing and subsurface currents move DSW-warm...Sure, mixing and subsurface currents move DSW-warmed water away from the surface and warm the 0 - 2000m layer as a whole, but the key is the thermal gradient across the ocean surface skin layer. <br /><br />Is <a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/09/why-greenhouse-gases-heat-the-ocean/" rel="nofollow">this the RC thread</a> you were thinking of btw?<br /><br />For anyone interested, here are a few useful links:<br /><br />SkS - How CO2 heats the ocean<br /><br />http://www.skepticalscience.com/How-Increasing-Carbon-Dioxide-Heats-The-Ocean.html<br /><br />SoD - Does back radiation heat the ocean? This addresses the skeptikoid argument that:<br /><br /><i>solar radiation heats the ocean, but atmospheric radiation only heats the top few molecules. So DLR is unable to transfer any heat into the bulk of the ocean, instead the energy goes into evaporating the top layer into water vapor. This water vapor then goes to make clouds which act as a negative feedback. And so, more back-radiation from more CO2 can only have a cooling effect.</i><br /><br />http://scienceofdoom.com/2010/10/06/does-back-radiation-heat-the-ocean-part-one/<br /><br />SoD - cool ocean skin layer<br /><br />http://scienceofdoom.com/2011/01/18/the-cool-skin-of-the-ocean/<br /><br />More:<br /><br />http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/oceans/science-focus/modis/MODIS_and_AIRS_SST_comp.shtml<br /><br />BBDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687930416706386215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-21424643688358084522014-12-11T17:42:37.337+11:002014-12-11T17:42:37.337+11:00Having set that pun up, I have only myself to blam...Having set that pun up, I have only myself to blame for how bad it is ... :)Brandon R. Gateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031044715994785956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-41580552060865097832014-12-11T17:41:29.114+11:002014-12-11T17:41:29.114+11:00That's my understanding as well. However, fro...That's my understanding as well. However, from the RC thread on the skin layer from a while back, I was lead to believe that while it's a real and measurable effect, ocean warming is not dominated by it, but rather by heat retention and transfer elsewhere. When dealing with cherry-picking denialists, I tend to go for largest effects that are easiest for me to 'splain.Brandon R. Gateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031044715994785956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-84888672709056362772014-12-11T10:00:27.839+11:002014-12-11T10:00:27.839+11:00Top marks FrankD! You have shown your workings wit...Top marks FrankD! You have shown your workings with relevance to known Physics and labelled all numbers with the correct units! It makes an old burnt out Physicist proud!<br />Can you do the same calculation for factor-X , alien spaceships, wormholes and other mythical causes of short/long term variation.<br />Do not bother as this is what the deniers want. Bert<br /><br />Bert from Elthamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-3000301606375201702014-12-11T07:47:23.660+11:002014-12-11T07:47:23.660+11:00I used to call them climate clowns because clowns ...I used to call them climate clowns because clowns do <i>physical comedy...</i><br /><br />:-)BBDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687930416706386215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-43502881563969880492014-12-11T07:44:49.263+11:002014-12-11T07:44:49.263+11:00Warming the atmosphere directly above the ocean su...Warming the atmosphere directly above the ocean surface reduces the thermal gradient across the ocean skin layer. This reduces the rate of conduction across the skin layer which reduces the rate at which energy leaves the bulk ocean. BBDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687930416706386215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-44634066313153851722014-12-11T04:05:29.676+11:002014-12-11T04:05:29.676+11:00Bob simply doesn't understand the law of energ...Bob simply doesn't understand the law of energy conservation.Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-34801463151459095782014-12-11T01:24:08.473+11:002014-12-11T01:24:08.473+11:00DMH, they like the 3 micron IR penetration argumen...DMH, they like the 3 micron IR penetration argument so much it's hard to get them unstuck from it. It doesn't seem to occur that the oceans are so good at sequestering energy to begin with because of that.<br /><br />Latent heat of condensation has to go somewhere. Precip falls on land surfaces which are warmer than they'd otherwise be. That warmer water goes somewhere ....<br /><br />Some smart person somewhere has likely tallied up all this stuff and ... oh yeah, Kevin Trenberth and friends. Many others.Brandon R. Gateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031044715994785956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-8672079811885503722014-12-11T01:14:10.252+11:002014-12-11T01:14:10.252+11:00That explains my cornfuzzlement. Combining comedy...That explains my cornfuzzlement. Combining comedy and physics could be harmful done improperly. There's no right way to do sockpuppetry.Brandon R. Gateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031044715994785956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-54007752495903118032014-12-11T00:59:38.291+11:002014-12-11T00:59:38.291+11:00Yes, Brandon, that was the one I was referring to ...Yes, Brandon, that was the one I was referring to in my reply to Frank. Bob has been branching out from ENSO quite a bit lately - trying his hand at comedy and physics and sockpuppetry and imitation (failing all four).Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-54281653051115865632014-12-11T00:46:22.351+11:002014-12-11T00:46:22.351+11:00Oh, err ... that quote was from a different Tisdal...Oh, err ... that quote was from a different Tisdale post, the one on UAH and RSS ....Brandon R. Gateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031044715994785956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-81521121762921993582014-12-11T00:40:10.117+11:002014-12-11T00:40:10.117+11:00The quote that tickles me is in the last graf: &qu...The quote that tickles me is in the last graf: "Of course, we know that the record high global surface temperatures in 2014 are primarily a response to a prolonged weather event in the North Pacific."<br /><br />It's funny how Bob remembers weather isn't climate when things start looking warmish.Brandon R. Gateshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17031044715994785956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-32935834105167391782014-12-11T00:38:41.132+11:002014-12-11T00:38:41.132+11:00Wow, that's terrific Frank. I'll remember ...Wow, that's terrific Frank. I'll remember your comment next time the subject of undersea volcanoes comes up, which it will.<br /><br />Bob thinks it's the sun - as far as I can tell but he doesn't explain how it the sun makes the earth hotter whether TSI is rising or falling (as it's been the since the 1950s or whenever). He's definitely a greenhouse effect denier and has no knowledge of high school physics.<br /><br />He usually just says it only got hot because it got hot somewhere. He's got another article just now saying it only got hot because it got hot and if it hadn't got hot it wouldn't have got hot. <br /><br />People will surely start to laugh at him even at WUWT. Then again, they are pretty dimwitted over there so probably not.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-81271155824967396792014-12-11T00:32:03.065+11:002014-12-11T00:32:03.065+11:00This may be rather OT, but I've been wondering...This may be rather OT, but I've been wondering what magical "natural" processes Bob is thinking of. Bob's cyclomania doesn't cut it - that much heat has to come from somewhere. <br /><br />The only Anything-But-Carbon place I can think of is submarine volcanoes, commonly the last handwaving defence of the denier, so just for the hell of it, I thought I'd put some numbers to the submarine volcano claim. Someone else may have done it already elsewhere, but I've not seen it.<br /><br />Specific heat of liquid magma = 1000 J/kg K<br />Specific heat of basalt = 1400 J/kg K (estimates vary quite a lot, I'll go high for this exercise)<br />Latent heat of crystalisation of basalt = 400000 J/kg<br /><br />Assuming magma hits the ocean floor at 1350 C, starts crystalising at around 1100 C and cools to near 0 C, each kilogram of magma would dump a total of 2.19 MJ into the ocean in this process. To explain 200 zJ (20 x 10^22J) taken up over the last 25 years, that would require 9 x 10^16 kg of lava, or 31,500 cubic kilometres. That equates to about 1000 times the volume of magma ejected by Kilauea, Earths most continuously active volcano, over the same time frame. 1000 Kilaueas? You think we'd have noticed....<br /><br />Put it another way, that's about 6% of the volume of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deccan_Traps" rel="nofollow">Deccan Traps</a>. But the Deccan Traps - the largest sustained outpouring of lava in the last 100 million years - took around 30000 years to form. That makes the rate of eruption 70-odd times the rate of the Deccan Traps. You think we'd have noticed....<br /><br />Incidentally that volume of lava would displace enough ocean water to raise sea levels by about 90mm, plus another 20mm for thermosteric rise. But sea level rise since 1990 has been about 70mm. So somewhere, the top 40 mm of the oceans has disappeared. Why aren't the submarine volcanists freaking about the hole in the bottom of the ocean draining away the equivalent of the average flow of the Mississippi? We need to find that hole and plug it! <br /><br />I'd say more, but I've just realised my credulometer is broken. If I don't go and get it fixed, I'll find myself believing any old rubbish....FrankDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-90373370358564613582014-12-10T18:31:36.343+11:002014-12-10T18:31:36.343+11:00One can only conclude that Anthony must subscribe ...One can only conclude that Anthony must subscribe to Tim's New World Order/One World Government/anti-semitic conspiracy theories, so forgives him his slaying of sky dragons. It's a matter of priorities :(Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-63054730780807957602014-12-10T18:25:18.467+11:002014-12-10T18:25:18.467+11:00I liked Mike's analogy to the Tim Ball's a...<i>I liked Mike's analogy to the Tim Ball's and other sky dragon slayers.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I meant to ask about that. The sky dragon dolts have been banned from WUWT, but Tim Ball still gets to post articles anyway? DMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-68677539121789632362014-12-10T17:32:21.122+11:002014-12-10T17:32:21.122+11:00My point was that it is a rather complicated topic...My point was that it is a rather complicated topic.<br />I dug my 30 year old physics text books out o the garage, and sure enough, IR gets absorbed in the first 3 microns of water, causing it to evaporate for the most part rather than warming it. But then you have water vapour warmer than the air would otherwise have been hanging over top of the water and conduction still works. But the real trick is to work from the MRL backward using the lapse rate to arrive at the elevated surface temperature, which is a simpler way to model it, which was what I think Weinstein was getting at.DMHnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-22439458421546869912014-12-10T17:16:34.930+11:002014-12-10T17:16:34.930+11:00Nick was trying to use the KISS principle by only ...Nick was trying to use the KISS principle by only mentioning radiation. It still went straight over good ol' Bobs head. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-5415542970643579212014-12-10T16:45:29.719+11:002014-12-10T16:45:29.719+11:00" However let me list a fraction of the dumb ..." However let me list a fraction of the dumb and wrong he wrote."<br />Sou Springsteen 2014PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10807913317731807617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-21784978250537642752014-12-10T16:38:09.461+11:002014-12-10T16:38:09.461+11:00How the hell does Sou get so much so right so ofte...How the hell does Sou get so much so right so often? Aren't there laws?PGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10807913317731807617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-12265500465009574642014-12-10T16:28:09.435+11:002014-12-10T16:28:09.435+11:00Leonard Weinstein tries to teach Bob a thing or tw...<i>Leonard Weinstein tries to teach Bob a thing or two,</i><br /><br />Well Weinstein got into it with Nick Stokes too, and Nick is no denier. DMHnoreply@blogger.com