tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post3600502547158898165..comments2024-03-25T05:30:23.847+11:00Comments on HotWhopper: Betrayed by political cowardice from Australia's "One Nation" Prime Minister, Malcolm TurnbullSouhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-6787086467950632922016-10-07T20:50:47.761+11:002016-10-07T20:50:47.761+11:00Of course there have never been large-scale blacko...Of course there have never been large-scale blackouts before, so proving that it was turbines what done it:<br /><br />http://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-10-worst-blackouts-in-the-last-50-years-4486990/<br /><br />Perhaps armchair historians of grid instability would do well to note the common cause of wide area outages. BBDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10687930416706386215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-35641533361592657512016-10-07T15:45:54.878+11:002016-10-07T15:45:54.878+11:00Thanks, Nick.
Actually, I thought it had happened ...Thanks, Nick.<br />Actually, I thought it had happened more quickly than that. Thanks for the update.markehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06387629308058823374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-12232382935866090502016-10-07T12:18:05.530+11:002016-10-07T12:18:05.530+11:00You know what is remarkable? What is remarkable is...You know what is remarkable? What is remarkable is that people like Xenophon and Uhlmann knew just what had happened the moment the disaster occurred. And the Murdochracy, of course.<br /><br />Hence my favourite tweet of the whole fiasco to date: <i>'It's reassuring to know that if an asteroid wipes out the electrical network engineers the country's political editors can fill the breach.' </i><br /><br />I completely agree with your last paragraph. This wasn't a good faith discussion about inevitable problems in incorporating a 21st Century technology into an anachronistic 20th Century grid, or the inability to know exactly what will happen to any complex network in a literally unprecedented situation.<br /><br />This was a hit job from the Right on behalf of their clubby mates' moribund, but still bankable, energy interests. Fortunately there's reason to hope my pessimism above has been misplaced - let's hope the states make it clear to Turnbull that there is no going back, so mindless renewables scapegoating is off the agenda.<br /><br />And, the irony: the ABC's Political Editor Chris Uhlmann spends a week promulgatimg the IPA / Blackout Truther line on a natural disaster, actually says this:<br /><br /><i>“Rushing to a target to parade green credentials exposes the electricity network to a serious security risk and, in the long run, risks permanent reputational damage to the renewable energy cause. The grid is being transformed, and that transformation needs to be managed sensibly, or <b>the entire nation might go to black.</b>”</i> [srsly] [my emph]<br /><br />-then accuses those who are calling him out of being 'hysterical'! Talk about Imax scale projection...<br /><br />billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-40747991629648602842016-10-06T23:08:54.323+11:002016-10-06T23:08:54.323+11:00You forget, or never knew, that the event was 90 s...You forget, or never knew, that the event was 90 seconds long and the three lines went out in the space of 12 seconds inside that period. 8 towers had been blown over by tornadoes.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09537772941984056434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-79262516281209503382016-10-06T23:05:07.877+11:002016-10-06T23:05:07.877+11:00Eric Worrall confirms he's incapable of compre...Eric Worrall confirms he's incapable of comprehending the AEMO report<br />No need, Eric, your credentials are already established.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09537772941984056434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-64861903151107715562016-10-06T22:04:12.842+11:002016-10-06T22:04:12.842+11:00@ Jammy Dodger - precisely
and it is inevitable ...@ Jammy Dodger - precisely <br /><br />and it is inevitable that extreme weather events will highlight flaws in the design of renewables, it would be remarkable if it did not <br /><br />after all the tsunami in Japan highlighted problems with the design of Fukushima<br /><br />simple tone trolling and projection <br />Tadaaahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07736188830660481871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-6791489024803797642016-10-06T20:36:35.371+11:002016-10-06T20:36:35.371+11:00"What is remarkable is that you all knew this...<i>"What is remarkable is that you all knew this well before the preliminary report was published ..."</i><br /><br />The trouble is marke is you do work hard to sound smug and be a bit of a prat. No, we did not <b>all</b> know this before the preliminary report. I, for one, have been following it with interest to find out what happened and the implications for grid design. I am quite open-minded about the causes and would accept, if it was so, that a move to new methods of generation throws up some technical issues here and there.<br /><br />What I see is that the anti-renewable politicians rushed to pin the problem on renewables and there was pushback against that. If those unscrupulous politicians did not rush to make political capital out of such events the whole debate would not be so polarised. People like you rush to support their assertions and throw some petrol on the debate and so it goes on. Of course the damage has already been done by then and the pro-renewable people are always having to do damage limitation and play catch-up.<br /> Jammy Dodgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08360437479098314946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-37472098135220388112016-10-06T20:00:44.750+11:002016-10-06T20:00:44.750+11:00Hey, some common ground!
We need as heavy a mini...Hey, some common ground!<br /><br />We need as heavy a mining tax as possible. <br /><br />Allowing the largely foreign owned (70%) big miners to extract as much mineral wealth as quickly as they can for the price of a few vague promises of a few jobs, a rapidly declining state mining royalty, a few strategic political donations and promises of board seats is lunacy.<br /><br />They also get away with murder in relation to groundwater usage and land clearing. markehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06387629308058823374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-90144696488331793722016-10-06T19:49:23.952+11:002016-10-06T19:49:23.952+11:00Ok. Here we are:
Even if the wind farms' viol...Ok. Here we are:<br /><br />Even if the wind farms' violent oscillations did trigger the final shutdown, that it not necessarily an indictment of windfarms in general.<br /><br />Had the the extra power generation capacity existed in some other form (gas or coal) it very likely would not have been situated at far flung points on the grid where it could have bypassed the downed main lines.<br /><br />What is remarkable is that you all knew this well before the preliminary report was published, and so were able to roundly condemn the announcements of politicians.<br /><br /><i>PS. I have attempted to include some of the standard phrases and words seemingly required for comment on this page, but am quite unable to incorporate any of the following words: 'smug', 'betrayal', 'troll' (tone/concern), 'pontifical', 'cowardice', 'prat', 'blowhard'...</i>markehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06387629308058823374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-70052366520521776792016-10-06T09:57:46.885+11:002016-10-06T09:57:46.885+11:00The question we need to ask ourselves here is not ...The question we need to ask ourselves here is not 'how stupid is Eric?' - we already have the answer to that one - it's 'how easily/willngly will the average suburban punter swallow the reactionary spin on this one?'<br /><br />Doing something about climate change is probably inconvenient, and, goddamn, there's a chance it may even cost them money! I've already cited the most obvious examples of egregious credulity: buying the GBNT and the Mining Tax BS, not to mention electing Tony Abbott in the first place, then re-electing him in his guise as Malcolm Turnbull.<br /><br />People who actually pay attention and understand that all this is of immense importance aren't going to be the problem. The problem is: how many people generally do you think are actually like that? The IPA, LNP and established FF industry already think they know the answer to that question, and they've got those 2 major victories under their belts already...billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-26713640618019790602016-10-06T09:43:58.815+11:002016-10-06T09:43:58.815+11:00Uhlmann's at it again; now its people who unde...Uhlmann's at it again; now its people who understand that it's vital to the future of this country that renewables not be sandbagged should just chill and realise he's allowed to JAQ off via the public broadcaster, right?<br /><br />This is what decades of right-anting at the ABC gets us.billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-61106877678933412322016-10-05T22:28:34.483+11:002016-10-05T22:28:34.483+11:00It's usually objective, not always fairly, but...It's usually objective, not always fairly, but probably at least as 'fairly objective' as the rest of the media, overall. And more objective than most - when it's not being a mouthpiece for the Institute of Public Affairs (a right wing lobby group).<br /><br />Also, Chris Uhlmann, who is now the ABC's political editor, is a rabid anti-wind ideologue. I don't know if he's a science denier as well. He comes across as not being in favour of mitigating carbon emissions but whether it's for ideological or religious reasons or for more pragmatic reasons (because he sees it as being in his current or future interest otherwise), I don't know.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-46938794913968729292016-10-05T21:09:37.918+11:002016-10-05T21:09:37.918+11:00http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-05/south-austra...http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-05/south-australian-blackout:-malcolm-turnbull-'politicking'/7904282<br /><br />Strange how that link is now redirected to <br /><br />http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-05/south-australian-blackout-wind-power-role-unclear-report-finds/7904282<br /><br />What sort of media is ABC? Is it fairly objective?Jammy Dodgerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08360437479098314946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-36381379023195597392016-10-05T20:57:44.996+11:002016-10-05T20:57:44.996+11:00yes, I suspect he his playing to the "denier&...yes, I suspect he his playing to the "denier" gallery <br /><br />they have to respond - so they simply post any old sh1t, to show the rest of the denier crowd they have a response<br /><br />and a link to a report sounds and looks impressive <br /><br />but they work on the basis that no denier will EVER read it let alone try and understand what it says <br /><br />it is simply a tick in the box for them Tadaaahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07736188830660481871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-21145348487052046382016-10-05T20:41:43.556+11:002016-10-05T20:41:43.556+11:00Tadaaa, I think you'll be waiting forever for ...Tadaaa, I think you'll be waiting forever for Eric to show you're mistaken. He might try but he'll fail because the report doesn't say that.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-87371886707128070052016-10-05T20:29:48.755+11:002016-10-05T20:29:48.755+11:00@ sou - yeah I have read the Exec summary, and alt...@ sou - yeah I have read the Exec summary, and although not an expert on electricity generation :-), I can read !! and I can't see anything that supports Eric's assertion <br /><br />But as always happy to be shown I am mistaken Tadaaahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07736188830660481871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-21293832795130318682016-10-05T20:15:30.723+11:002016-10-05T20:15:30.723+11:00Don't expect Eric to have read the report or i...Don't expect Eric to have read <a href="http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3122328-AEMO-SA-PRELIMINARY-REPORT.html" rel="nofollow">the report</a> or if he has, to have understood it. Eric's comprehension isn't that high. He's just parroting the headlines he's read at his climate conspiracy blog.<br /><br />If you <a href="http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3122328-AEMO-SA-PRELIMINARY-REPORT.html#document/p26" rel="nofollow">read the report</a>, the main thing that precipitated the blackout was the storm's wind and tornadoes. The storm caused all sorts of problems, including downing numerous towers on three of the four transmission lines.<br /><br />Since all weather is affected by global warming, it's likely that this storm wouldn't have been the way it was without it. <br /><br />Eric probably thinks all the blackouts in Victoria, the ACT and NSW this past week were also caused by South Australia's wind farms. (He's <a href="https://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22eric+worrall%22+site%3A.hotwhopper.com&oq=%22eric+worrall%22+site%3A.hotwhopper.com&aqs=chrome..69i57.9579j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" rel="nofollow">never exhibited any skills</a> in critical thinking.)Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-30592946815738491702016-10-05T19:29:38.157+11:002016-10-05T19:29:38.157+11:00can you quote the exact text in the report that sa...can you quote the exact text in the report that says that <br /><br />"wind farms caused the blackout"<br /><br />Tadaaahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07736188830660481871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-61476857277819380612016-10-05T19:04:09.084+11:002016-10-05T19:04:09.084+11:00AEMO confirms wind farms caused the blackout. http...AEMO confirms wind farms caused the blackout. https://www.aemo.com.au/Media-Centre/-/media/BE174B1732CB4B3ABB74BD507664B270.ashxEric Worrallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14053132017679865559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-9721188019186112402016-10-05T18:41:03.998+11:002016-10-05T18:41:03.998+11:00Gee, smug pontifical tone-trolling - there's a...Gee, smug pontifical tone-trolling - there's a surprise!<br /><br />Anyway, those interested in reality and not playing the giddy-gloat [sic] might also <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/oct/05/wicked-windfarms-and-how-to-separate-the-facts-of-the-blackout-from-the-storm-of-spin" rel="nofollow">look to this summary</a>:<br /><br /><i> A very serious weather event involving high winds, thunderstorms, lightning strikes, hail and heavy rainfall results in multiple transmission system faults through the state grid, including, in the space of 12 seconds – the loss of three major 275KV transmission lines north of Adelaide.<br /><br /> Pause here momentarily. Make sure you take in point one properly before we move to the next point in the sequence, because, on current information, point one is pretty important. It’s the critical factor.<br /><br /> After the freak storm hit, causing the loss of three major transmission lines, we then get to the windfarms. The AEMO describes the sequence thusly: “Following multiple faults in a short period, 315MW of wind generation disconnected, affecting the region north of Adelaide. The uncontrolled reduction in generation increased the flow on the main Victorian interconnector (Heywood) to make up the deficit and resulted in the interconnector overloading.”<br /><br /> Then, to avoid damage to the interconnector, the “automatic-protection mechanism activated” – which tripped the interconnector and caused the blackout.<br /><br />So yes, if you were interested in highly selective storytelling, you could thunder “it was the windfarms what did it”. Colonel Mustard, in the library, with the candlestick.<br /><br />But, if you are interested in understanding the complete picture, it’s the one I’ve just given you, subject to the caveat that the AEMO itself gives – that it’s too early to “know” several things. We’ll get another update from the regulator on 19 October, then the final detailed assessment in about six months’ time.<br /><br />What the events in South Australia should do is this: trigger a serious conversation about whether federal and state governments are working together collaboratively to ensure we are combining measures to ensure future energy security with the urgent imperative of lowering greenhouse gas emissions to meet our international obligations.</i><br /><br /><br />To my mind this is one of the most sordid pieces of political sandbagging that I can ever recall - a deliberate attempt to kneecap a fledgling industry in the name of a reactionary ideological agenda that is too monumentally Stupid to wipe the smug grin off its face for half a second and think about what it's actually just committed us to.<br /><br />It's also a <i>de facto</i> renunciation of our ever meeting any of our international obligations re carbon.<br /><br />The Australian public was stupid enough to buy all the crap about the 'Great Big New Tax' from the most ludicrous salesman in the country's history. <br /><br />They were also stupid enough to swallow the notion that the community had no right to a share in the miners' unprecedented profit-taking during the greatest boom in the country's history; a perfect inversion of what happens in sane countries with literate, engaged populations, like, say Norway.<br /><br />Odds are they'll be stupid enough to buy this. And the reactionaries know it. Conservatism is now Trumpism: you don't have to be right - in fact, that's not even a conceptually valid idea - you just have to win.<br /><br />The Anglophone world is not merely being compressed into a reactionary bubble, it's fast collapsing into an epistemic singularity...billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-4401535596821608172016-10-05T18:18:23.697+11:002016-10-05T18:18:23.697+11:00Sure, if this is correct, then it was not due to w...Sure, if this is correct, then it was <b>not</b> due to wind farms shutting down due to storm conditions.<br /><br /> <i>It was only the failure of the third transmission line at 1615.18 that the system went black 1.2 seconds later.<br /><br />The third transmission line took away the delivery for two other wind farms.</i><br /><br />Line failure is line failure.<br /><br />I had expected that if it was this simple, they would have simply stated it instead of pondering on the role of wind power in the shutdown.<br /><br />I have no idea why they did not.<br /><br />By the way, sorry about discussing things. <br /><br />I didn't realize the basic aim here is to pat each others' backs and deride any other information and comment.<br />I'm really quite shocked. :-(<br /><br />;-)markehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06387629308058823374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-45211505543349270302016-10-05T17:50:02.669+11:002016-10-05T17:50:02.669+11:00I love it when people who know bugger all about a ...I love it when people who know bugger all about a state, its people, its electricity networks, its power generation infrastructure etc. etc. give us their <i>really valuable</i> opinions based on their highly motivated readings of who is and isn't spinning a situation.<br /><br />This state sure suffered a hard blow - and then we've kept having to suffer the blowhards. From Xenophon over to the PM and his Murdochratic enablers, down through the One Nation space cadets, arriving at the bottom of the barrel with drive-by prats like this guy and anonymous above.<br /><br />Yep, what the world really needs is more of the endless, impressionistic, self-congratulatory bloviations of aging white guys...billnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-40067169771157161012016-10-05T16:57:46.032+11:002016-10-05T16:57:46.032+11:00The dropout was from transmission failures, not ge...The dropout was from transmission failures, not generation failures. This is from another analysis of the report <a href="http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/aemo-report-into-sa-blackout-raises-questions-answers-none-55986" rel="nofollow">at RenewEnergy</a>:<br /><br /><i>...The report was released on Wednesday morning, just two days before a hastily convened COAG energy minister’s meeting on Friday.<br /><br />This is grist for the mill for that meeting – and it appears its timing serves no other purpose. No doubt it will be seized upon by the Coalition in its campaign against wind farms and its attempts to stop the states from going forward with their own renewable energy programs.<br /><br />In particular, the Coalition will point to the loss of 315MW of wind power highlighted by AEMO in the press release after the collapse of the last of the transmission lines that preceded the failure of the inter-connector. At that point all the remaining gas and wind generators tripped.<br /><br />But there is a question about whether this loss of wind capacity really mattered. The data in the actual report suggests not.<br /><br />Wind generators were producing a total of 883MW at the time (gas was providing 330MW and 613MW was coming from Victoria) – had ridden out the loss of the first two transmission lines.<br /><br />A small amount of wind capacity dropped out after the second transmission fell, but as this chart below shows, there was no impact on frequency. <b>It was only the failure of the third transmission line at 1615.18 that the system went black 1.2 seconds later.</b><br /><br />The third transmission line took away the delivery for two other wind farms. <b>It wouldn’t have mattered which power source. Within another half a second, all gas and wind plants had gone after the interconnector tripped....</b></i><br /><br />I don't know why the Federal Government doesn't want to meet its own renewable energy targets. Perhaps too many politicians are in thrall to the fossil fuel sector, or perhaps it's that too many of them think that wind farms cause storms.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-55243622411109545932016-10-05T15:52:31.865+11:002016-10-05T15:52:31.865+11:00Here you go. A headline that agrees with you:
S...Here you go. A headline that agrees with you: <br /><br /><b>South Australian blackout: Malcolm Turnbull politicking at time of emergency, Jay Weatherill says</b><br />http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-05/south-australian-blackout:-malcolm-turnbull-'politicking'/7904282<br /><br />But, it sounds like spin to me:<br /><br />As I read it:<br /><br />1. The transmission line faults occurred, <br />2.then the system coped for a short period, <br />3. but when the wind power suddenly dropped out, that overloaded the interstate inter-connector, and system shut down. <br /><b>The reason for the wind generation shutdown is as yet unknown. </b><br /><br /><i>AEMO said in a summary that severe weather, including high winds, thunderstorms, lightning strikes, hail and heavy rainfall, resulted in multiple transmission system faults on Wednesday last week.<br /><br />This included the loss of three major 275 kV transmission lines north of Adelaide in the space of 12 seconds.<br />SA power outage: How did it happen?<br /><br />South Australia and its 1.7 million residents were left without power on Wednesday evening following severe storms.<br /><br />It said generation initially flowed through the damaged systems but "following an extensive number of faults in a short period [seconds], 315 MW of wind generation disconnected".<br /><br />"The uncontrolled reduction in generation resulted in increased flow on the main Victorian interconnector to make up the deficit," AEMO said.<br /><br />This resulted in the interconnector overloading and an automatic-protection mechanism tripping the interconnector to protect it from damage, causing the rest of SA black-out.<br /><br />The report said <b>there was a reduction in wind farm generation at connection points leading up to the outage, but more analysis was required to discern what that cause was.</b><br /></i>markehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06387629308058823374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-87333603149263714902016-10-05T05:58:32.754+11:002016-10-05T05:58:32.754+11:00In South Africa they call traffic lights robots. I...In South Africa they call traffic lights robots. It looks like they control us all already. Bert<br /><br />Bert from Elthamnoreply@blogger.com