tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post1491681145637649884..comments2024-03-25T05:30:23.847+11:00Comments on HotWhopper: Why aren't all the fish dead? Willis Eschenbach on marine biology Souhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-6567154741582584242015-01-21T13:31:43.311+11:002015-01-21T13:31:43.311+11:00Thank you muchly, Bernard :)Thank you muchly, Bernard :)Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-61158671382701054302015-01-21T13:05:19.342+11:002015-01-21T13:05:19.342+11:00MostlyHarmless.
Neutrality is a relative term, as...MostlyHarmless.<br /><br />Neutrality is a relative term, as is acidification, and hence your interpretation of ocean acidification is flawed - as others have already noted. If you are still struggling with this, read my comment at this link:<br /><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/05/09/moncktons-testimony-to-congres/#comment-89329" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/05/09/moncktons-testimony-to-congres/#comment-89329</a><br /><br />and some of the ones below...<br /><br />Getting back to WUWT, I too tried to steer them in the right direction several years ago; I'm not surprised that the pointer didn't stick:<br /><br /><a href="http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/02/25/fact-check-for-andrew-glickson-ocean-heat-has-paused-too/#comment-1241195" rel="nofollow">http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/02/25/fact-check-for-andrew-glickson-ocean-heat-has-paused-too/#comment-1241195</a><br /><br />Following one of the links in that post, Willis' confusion about pH reminds me of the beginning of the hoary old Brangelina thread at Deltoid:<br /><br /><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2013/02/02/brangelina-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-147100" rel="nofollow">http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2013/02/02/brangelina-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-147100</a><br /><br />It's worth reading the first page to see how Brad struggled with the chemistry of hydronium. And it's sad to see that there is still Stupid fodder lining up to replace the numpties who have been shot down in the past.<br /><br />Sou, check your inbox...Bernard J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-15641648313718734432015-01-08T07:21:14.324+11:002015-01-08T07:21:14.324+11:00The reason colder water is more acidic than warmer...The reason colder water is more acidic than warmer water is simply due to the fact that colder water can dissolve more gases, including CO2, than warmer water. Thus ocean waters at higher latitudes are generally more acidic than the waters of lower latitudes.Anthony Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02513872551156179165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-42243205483025019812015-01-06T10:25:01.202+11:002015-01-06T10:25:01.202+11:00The pseudo-skeptics' attempts to redefine lang...The pseudo-skeptics' attempts to redefine language so that correct science magically becomes "wrong" is one of their most irritating habits. "Acidification" is understood by the entire ocean-science community to mean a reduction in pH. If people are genuinely fooled into believing that acidification requires a transition from pH >7 to <7, then they probably don't know enough to comment and should use their freed-up blogging time to take courses.PLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-45124477664555656722015-01-06T09:04:24.785+11:002015-01-06T09:04:24.785+11:00Hey, MostlyHarmless, I have a chemistry degree and...Hey, MostlyHarmless, I have a chemistry degree and using the word "Acidification" is entirely good. guthrienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-13415473844451806052015-01-05T05:59:30.384+11:002015-01-05T05:59:30.384+11:00"In a PWR, the primary coolant (water) is pum..."In a PWR, the primary <i>coolant</i> (water) is pumped under high pressure to the reactor core where it is heated by the energy generated by the fission of atoms."<br /><br />My italics.<br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressurized_water_reactor<br /><br />OK then, I'll write to everyone in the nuclear industry and tell them that the correct word should be dehottant because there's nothing in a working PWR's primary circuit that could be described as cool.<br /><br />I have an intolerance to bullshit too.Millicentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-64863463181810510262015-01-05T04:12:23.009+11:002015-01-05T04:12:23.009+11:00Mostly, it is easy to imagine taking an alkaline s...Mostly, it is easy to imagine taking an alkaline solution of pH8 and adding to it an excess of acid to leave a resulting solution of pH6, for example. You will argue that this example is not quite what you meant but it is correct. <br /><br />You state that the more you know, the more you find you don't know. That should not be an excuse for not learning more. One thing to learn is that the process of decreasing pH in the world's oceans does not depend on what it is called. This has been discussed ad nauseam. Fact is, pH in the seas is decreasing.Catmandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12313870265499015076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-57561951158554308482015-01-05T01:27:46.759+11:002015-01-05T01:27:46.759+11:00I have an intolerance to bullshit, whatever its so...I have an intolerance to bullshit, whatever its source or intent, or pH even. Curiously enough, faecal pH in pasture-fed cattle is neutral - around 7.<br /><br />I know a little about ocean pH and chemistry, and dislike the term "acidification". Something which becomes less alkaline cannot be described as becoming acidified.<br /><br />In general, the more I know, the more I realise how little I know. If only more blog posters and commenters would acknowledge the same (about themselves, not about me!), dialogue might be a bit more constructive, informed, informative, and a lot less partisan.MostlyHarmlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18058940884892720332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-51115421694809419022015-01-05T00:25:40.552+11:002015-01-05T00:25:40.552+11:00I've heard of people being afflicted with acid...I've heard of people being afflicted with acid reflux, but never with alkali reflux:)<br /><br />Also, can Willis see past his stomach?<br /><br />http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1787837/pdf/brmedj02198-0058.pdfSouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-33729398629716504692015-01-05T00:11:31.779+11:002015-01-05T00:11:31.779+11:00Willis opines: [w]hereas the most alkaline foods t...Willis opines: [w]hereas the most alkaline foods that we can tolerate have a pH of around eight, which is only one pH unit above neutral.<br /><br />Look on the bright side, at least Willis' post is a welcome break from the W.E. travelogue. (He's been there, seen that, absorbed all the facts, figures and science).<br /><br />I assume we can tolerate milk of magnesia, pH 10.5? Or is the little blue bottle a source of instant death?MostlyHarmlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18058940884892720332noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-62136155953987238112015-01-04T22:35:03.735+11:002015-01-04T22:35:03.735+11:00I've added a second update , trying to make s...I've added a <a href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2015/01/why-arent-all-fish-dead-willis.html#update2" rel="nofollow"> second update </a>, trying to make sense of Willis' to-ing and fro-ing in the comments to his article.Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-84341676619587873072015-01-04T16:16:11.050+11:002015-01-04T16:16:11.050+11:00It makes sense to me that the oceans would have lo...It makes sense to me that the oceans would have lower pH in the high latitudes. Cold water is able to hold a higher concentration of CO2 than warmer water.riveratnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-68946046790313923422015-01-04T04:27:12.976+11:002015-01-04T04:27:12.976+11:00That was, indeed, quite a silly article. I wasn...That was, indeed, quite a silly article. I wasn't going to read the archived version, but finally had to because I wondered if perhaps you'd oversimplified what he was saying (for snark's sake). Nope. You did not. <br /><br />If I was still teaching biology I'd have presented that article to my first year students and have them dissect it. I suspect his comment about Alaska marine environment being much richer is in reference to the abundance of krill, plankton, smaller invertebrates that the marine mammals travel to feast upon. He should have defined what he meant by "richer". Sloppy. <br /><br />Also slightly surprised he attributed the difference in "richness" to pH, just like that rather than, say, nutrient-rich water from upwellings, melting ice...why food sources are so much richer in the Arctic (and Antarctic) is well understood (or so I thought). But then he also attributed slime to protecting fish from dissolving, so his causation-correlation wiring--along with logical thought wiring--seems to be burnt out (too much acid in his diet, no doubt). ;-)Dan Andrewsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-2473630410274028132015-01-04T01:18:54.834+11:002015-01-04T01:18:54.834+11:00The creatures perhaps most susceptible to ocean ac...The creatures perhaps most susceptible to ocean acidification are the zooplankton. I'm sure to a fisherman they might be of little interest as they're small, but they are big players in the food webs of the ocean as almost all larger life eats zooplankton, or other animals that eat zooplankton (yes, that very much includes fish). <br /><br />Acidification makes it impossible for juvenile zooplankton to build their shells and therefore they never reach maturity. So there's an eventual loss of species. Tthat means a large part of the ocean food chain disappears, with obvious consequences to fish stocks, as well as the plankton-eating larger mammals like whales.<br /><br />But there's more. Zooplankton, <i>"...are also critical to the carbon cycle. Oceans contain the greatest amount of actively cycled carbon in the world and are also very important in storing carbon. When shelled zooplankton (as well as shelled phytoplankton) die and sink to the seafloor, they carry their calcium carbonate shells with them, which are deposited as rock or sediment and stored for the foreseeable future. This is an important way that carbon dioxide is removed from the atmosphere, slowing the rise in temperature caused by the greenhouse effect."</i><br /><br />So could that be a positive feedback, leading to a slowdown in the planet's ability to take up atmospheric CO2? <br /><br />The quote came from here: http://ocean.si.edu/ocean-acidification<br /><br />John Russell (@JohnRussell40)https://twitter.com/JohnRussell40noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-3272476466140159602015-01-04T00:30:06.096+11:002015-01-04T00:30:06.096+11:00That last comment you cite must be a milk-pasteuri...That last comment you cite must be a milk-pasteurization-conspiracy-theorist, right? I bet that commenter is a fluoride conspiracy theorist too. Captain Flashheartnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-17724140635335328312015-01-04T00:05:44.114+11:002015-01-04T00:05:44.114+11:00From Willis:
"Note that in Hawaii, the surfa...From Willis:<br /><br />"Note that in Hawaii, the surface pH is above 8.05, and in Alaska the surface pH is below 7.7 … and despite that, the marine environment in Alaska is much, much richer in life"<br /><br />Oh dear. Colder water contains more oxygen and fish - Willis Eschenbach permitting - still need that.Millicentnoreply@blogger.com