tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post8148969789691837517..comments2024-03-25T05:30:23.847+11:00Comments on HotWhopper: Reflections from surface and clouds - is there an albedo expert in the house?Souhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-6268614195498936652015-07-13T00:46:17.600+10:002015-07-13T00:46:17.600+10:00I had another look.
I suspect "albedo" ...I had another look.<br /><br />I suspect "albedo" and "TOA albedo" are different things. Willis calculates TOA albedo. Encyclopedia of Climate calculates TOA albedo (I managed to duplicate their results for 2010 using CERES data.<br /><br />TOA albedo appears to be the ratio of outgoing shortwave flux divided by the incoming solar flux.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11552461190113661645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-30205185821945676362015-07-12T23:02:59.454+10:002015-07-12T23:02:59.454+10:00If one Google's ...
"Energy Budget Adjus...If one Google's ...<br /><br />"Energy Budget Adjusted Fluxes"<br /><br />One gets (I get) exactly 3 hits, all pointing to the main paper mentioned above.<br /><br />If one goes to the CERES site, one finds (I find) this:<br /><br />CERES EBAF-TOA Product Information<br />http://ceres.larc.nasa.gov/products.php?product=EBAF-TOA<br /><br />CERES EBAF-Surface Product Information<br />http://ceres.larc.nasa.gov/products.php?product=EBAF-Surface<br /><br />According to those webpages EBAF = Energy Balanced And Filled<br /><br />Loeb, et. al. (2009) also state ... "We refer to this new CERES climatology as CERES-Energy Balanced and Filled<br />(EBAF). (p. 749)<br />http://www.nsstc.uah.edu/~naeger/references/journals/Sundar_Journal_Papers/2008_JC_Loeb.pdf<br /><br />Likewise, Kato, et. al. (2013) (Loeb 2nd author or coauthor) ... "The CERES derived TOA irradiances are from the Energy Balanced and Filled (EBAF; Loeb et al. 2009) product. (p. 2720)<br />http://www-cave.larc.nasa.gov/pdfs/Kato.JCL13.pdf<br /><br />So, if WE isn't using that particular dataset then ... wait for it ... go figure.<br /><br />If WE isn't using equations (1 thru 6b) from Stephens15 then ... wait for it ... go figure (doesn't have too, but one hopes that if one wants to reproduce another's work one would follow their derivation/definition). D'oh!<br /><br />If WE is scared to actually submit a formal reply to the journal, which appears, at least to me, to be the rather obvious case (for fear of being labeled an incompetent DK'er) then ... wait for it ... go figure.Everett F Sargenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00201577558036010680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-13242646061424260342015-07-12T21:24:14.768+10:002015-07-12T21:24:14.768+10:00Sue,
It's worth noting the comment of Mike M....Sue,<br /> It's worth noting the comment of <a href="https://archive.is/o/OxazL/http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/07/10/an-albedic-curiosity/%23comment-1983268" rel="nofollow">Mike M</a>. He's one of the few scientifically knowledgeable folk there. I wondered what is happening. It's hard to imagine that it is a mistake; Graeme Stephens has worked with this over his whole career. It's a major review paper, with senior co-authors. And it isn't a slip - they break down the variation into components, and give explanations, which are at variance to Willis'.<br /> <br /> I don't think though that the geometric albedo idea of Mike M pans out. The paper never refers to the distinction, but it fairly often refers to the Earth's albedo at 0.29, which is Bond (geometric is about 0.36).<br /><br />Incidentally, Graeme S and Peter W were both with CSIRO at Aspendale in the 1980's. Peter is from Melbourne. I didn't know him then, but I did do some work with Graeme. He's a first-rate scientist. I'll be interested to see how it works out.<br />Nick Stokeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06377413236983002873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-27785496757566706702015-07-12T20:35:07.418+10:002015-07-12T20:35:07.418+10:00And the Encyclopedia of Climate is for only one ye...And the Encyclopedia of Climate is for only one year (2010), so I was surprised at the excellent match Willis got averaging 14 years considering the CERES data is all over the place, it varies a lot year to year.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11552461190113661645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-36340500855519858912015-07-12T20:17:15.586+10:002015-07-12T20:17:15.586+10:00I don't think Willis ever read the manual, Har...I don't think Willis ever read the manual, Harry. AFAIK you're correct. IIRC the short wave radiation is calculated by what's left after removing the long wave from TOA all radiation.<br /><br /><a href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2014/01/willis-eschenbach-wonders-about-ceres.html" rel="nofollow">Willis Eschenbach wonders about CERES</a><br /><br />That article also looks at why the short wave radiation is similar in both hemispheres. (Like this article here).Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-74598326170729487952015-07-12T20:02:32.464+10:002015-07-12T20:02:32.464+10:00The other thing I noticed is that Willis does not ...The other thing I noticed is that Willis does not say how he calculated his albedo - as far as I am aware the CERES data does not include albedo.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11552461190113661645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-71250199357350105462015-07-12T19:30:05.677+10:002015-07-12T19:30:05.677+10:00Darn. Sou beat me to it. I was just about to link ...Darn. Sou beat me to it. I was just about to link to that article :-)<br /><br />But anyway, in the comments there from a WUWT reader:<br /><br />Rob December 17, 2014 at 11:47 pm<br /><i>Now, to start with they’ve done something strange. Rather than look at the changes over the whole year, they’ve only looked at three months of the year, June, July, and August.</i><br /><br />Its dark in the Arctic in winter time. Good luck looking for changes in reflected light in perpetual darkness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-87655002691079492372015-07-12T19:19:13.172+10:002015-07-12T19:19:13.172+10:00I'll add this to the further reading list :)
...I'll add this to the further reading list :)<br /><br /><a href="http://blog.hotwhopper.com/2014/12/wondering-willis-eschenbach-looks-for.html" rel="nofollow">Wondering Willis Eschenbach looks for sunlight in the Arctic winter - yeah, really!</a>Souhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818999735123752034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-70898010543777880752015-07-12T19:09:43.166+10:002015-07-12T19:09:43.166+10:00I'm quite sure Willis has been caught out on t...I'm quite sure Willis has been caught out on this before. You know, neglecting to notice that the Arctic is dark for a large portion of winter. That pretty much blows his argument straight out of the water.<br /><br />And, of course, this was pointed out to him before the first time he made this mistake. Maybe we should call this sort of behaviour the Goldfish Gambit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2313427464944392482.post-90128973964056890082015-07-12T18:45:10.322+10:002015-07-12T18:45:10.322+10:00I had a quick read of the Stephens et al paper, it...I had a quick read of the Stephens et al paper, it looked fine to me.<br /><br />The albedo chart does look different to others I have seen, but not a lot different. The effect they are studying is small, and others have said the CERES measurements are uncertain.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11552461190113661645noreply@blogger.com